United States of America v. 3 Knife-Shaped Coins et alCross MOTION for Summary Judgment and Opposition to Claimant's Motion for Summary JudgmentD. Md.August 22, 2016IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND Northern Division UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff, v. Three Knife-Shaped Coins, Twelve Chinese Coins, and Seven Cypriot Coins, Defendants. ) ) ) ) Civil No. CCB-13-1183 ) ) ) ) ) THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA’S CROSS-MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT AND OPPOSITION TO CLAIMANT’S MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT Plaintiff, United States of America, opposes Claimant’s motion for summary judgment, ECF No. 72, and cross-moves for summary judgment pursuant to Fed. R. Civ. Pro. 56 and Local Rule 105. In support of this, the United States avers as follows: 1. There is no genuine issue of material fact that the government is entitled to the forfeiture of the coins numbered 1--6, 12--13, and 16--22 on the stipulated Coin Documentation List, ECF No. 73- 1 at 2. The government has met its initial burden with regard to these coins, and Claimant has not presented a valid defense or exception to the forfeiture. 2. The government is beginning the process of returning coins numbered 7--11 and 14--15 on the stipulated Coin Documentation List, ECF No. 73-1 at 2. The Guild’s arguments with regards to those coins, to the extent they are valid at all, will soon be moot. 3. The Guild is not entitled to summary judgment, fees, or costs. The arguments the Guild advances go to the validity of the underlying regulations and have been foreclosed by judicial precedent. 4. A memorandum of law is attached that more fully lays out these arguments. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76 Filed 08/22/16 Page 1 of 3 2 The United States’ Motion for Summary Judgment should be GRANTED and the Guild’s motion for summary judgment should be DENIED. Respectfully submitted, ROD J. ROSENSTEIN United States Attorney /s/ Molissa H. Farber (Bar No. 802255) Assistant United States Attorney 36 S. Charles Street, 4th Floor Baltimore, Maryland 21201 Ph. 410-209-4862 Fx. 410-962-2310 Attorney for the United States of America Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76 Filed 08/22/16 Page 2 of 3 3 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE I certify that on August 22, 2016, a copy of the foregoing Cross-Motion for Summary Judgment and Opposition to Claimant’s Motion for Summary Judgment was caused to be served by filing that document with the Clerk of the Court under the Court’s CM/ECF system, which electronically transmits a copy to the registered participants, and paper copies were mailed by first class mail, postage prepaid, to those identified as nonregistered participants. /s/ Molissa H. Farber Assistant United States Attorney Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76 Filed 08/22/16 Page 3 of 3 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND Northern Division UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff, v. Three Knife-Shaped Coins, Twelve Chinese Coins, and Seven Cypriot Coins, Defendants. ) ) ) ) Civil No. CCB-13-1183 ) ) ) ) ) MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA’S CROSS-MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT AND OPPOSITION TO CLAIMANT’S MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT TABLE OF CONTENTS I. INTRODUCTION ............................................................................................................................... 2 II. BACKGROUND ................................................................................................................................. 3 A. Initial Seizure of Defendant Property .............................................................................................. 3 B. Initial APA Action ........................................................................................................................... 5 C. Fourth Circuit Appeal ...................................................................................................................... 6 D. Instant Asset Forfeiture Proceeding ................................................................................................. 7 E. Discovery ......................................................................................................................................... 9 III. LEGAL STANDARD .................................................................................................................... 11 IV. ARGUMENT ................................................................................................................................. 11 A. The Government has Met Its Initial Burden .................................................................................. 11 1. This Court and the Fourth Circuit have found that the government met its initial burden. ....... 12 2. The Guild’s own concessions establish the authenticity of the coins and the accuracy of the Spink invoice. ................................................................................................................................... 13 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 1 of 30 2 B. The Guild Cannot Establish an Exception to Forfeiture ................................................................ 15 1. Scholarly evidence regarding the general circulation of Chinese and Cypriot coins is irrelevant and constitutes a challenge to the validity of the regulations. .......................................................... 15 2. Scholarly analysis of the export control status of the coins under foreign law is irrelevant and not a proper forfeiture defense. ......................................................................................................... 18 C. The Government Has Established Entitlement to Forfeiture ......................................................... 20 D. The Guild is Not Entitled to Summary Judgment .......................................................................... 21 1. The Guild’s expert reports are irrelevant to any material fact. .................................................. 21 2. The government was not required to produce an expert to identify the defendant property. .... 21 3. The Court should not reconsider its previous rulings. ............................................................... 23 4. The Guild negated its own fair notice argument, to the extent it even makes one. ................... 26 V. CONCLUSION ................................................................................................................................. 28 I. INTRODUCTION This is a civil forfeiture action brought under the asset forfeiture provisions of the Convention on Cultural Property Implementation Act (“CPIA”), 19 U.S.C. § 2601 et seq. The defendant property consists of three knife-shaped Chinese coins, twelve other Chinese coins, and seven Cypriot coins that are part of the cultural heritage of the Chinese and Cypriot people. These coins were imported into the country by a lobbying organization called the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild (“ACCG” or the “Guild”) in order to challenge the regulations governing their importation. Throughout six years of litigation---in two civil actions before both district and appellate courts---the Guild has repeated the same arguments against the validity of CPIA restrictions on the defendant property. At every stage, the Guild’s arguments have been carefully considered and rejected. Because the Guild has failed to rebut the government’s entitlement to forfeiture of coins 1--6, 12--13, and 16--22, the government is entitled to Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 2 of 30 3 summary judgment in its favor as to the forfeitability of those coins. The government is beginning the process of returning coins 7--11 and coins 14--15 to the Guild. The Guild’s own motion for summary judgment, supported by already-discredited arguments and factual and legal irrelevancies, should be denied. II. BACKGROUND A. INITIAL SEIZURE OF DEFENDANT PROPERTY On April 16, 2009, Customs and Border Protection (“CBP”) detained twenty-two ancient Chinese and Cypriot coins (the “defendant property” or the “coins”) that the Guild imported through Baltimore-Washington International (“BWI”) Airport. ECF No. 48-2 (July 20, 2009 custody receipt for seized property and evidence). An invoice accompanying the defendant property listed twenty-three1 ancient Chinese and Cypriot coins with an estimated value of $275. ECF No. 72-5 at 235--36 (Spink invoice). CBP detained the defendant property as being subject to import restrictions under the Convention on Cultural Property Implementation Act (“CPIA”), 19 U.S.C. § 2601, et. seq., and its implementing regulations. The Guild then had a chance to establish the existence of a statutory exception under 19 U.S.C. § 2606 that would permit the defendant property’s legal importation. 19 U.S.C. § 2606 requires: “(1) the certificate or other documentation of the State Party required under subsection (a) [certifying that the exportation was not in violation of the laws of the State Party]; or (2) satisfactory evidence that such material was exported from the State Party— (A) not less than ten years before the date of such entry and that neither the person for whose account the material is imported (or any related person) 1 There is a discrepancy between the number of coins listed on the invoice and the number of coins constituting the defendant property. The reason for the discrepancy is unknown. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 3 of 30 4 contracted for or acquired an interest, directly or indirectly, in such material more than one year before that date of entry, or (B) on or before the date on which such material was designated under section 2604 of this title 19 U.S.C. § 2606(b). The section further defines “satisfactory evidence” as: (1) for purposes of subsection (b)(2)(A)— (A) one or more declarations under oath by the importer, or the person for whose account the material is imported, stating that, to the best of his knowledge— (i) the material was exported from the State Party not less than ten years before the date of entry into the United States, and (ii) neither such importer or person (or any related person) contracted for or acquired an interest, directly or indirectly, in such material more than one year before the date of entry of the material; and (B) a statement provided by the consignor, or person who sold the material to the importer, which states the date, or, if not known, his belief, that the material was exported from the State Party not less than ten years before the date of entry into the United States, and the reasons on which the statement is based; and (2) for purposes of subsection (b)(2)(B)— (A) one or more declarations under oath by the importer or the person for whose account the material is to be imported, stating that, to the best of his knowledge, the material was exported from the State Party on or before the date such material was designated under section 2604 of this title, and (B) a statement by the consignor or person who sold the material to the importer which states the date, or if not known, his belief, that the material was exported from the State Party on or before the date such material was designated under section 2604 of this title, and the reasons on which the statement is based. 19 U.S.C. § 2606(c). In a May 13, 2009 letter, counsel for the Guild informed CBP of their belief “that the [CPIA] . . . requires U.S. Customs to trace the coins in question back to either China or Cyprus before they may be properly detained.” ECF No. 48-4 (May 13, 2009 letter from Peter Tompa). By letter dated May 27, 2009, the Guild further stated that it was “unable to provide the requested Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 4 of 30 5 certification or evidence” in accordance with 19 U.S.C. § 2606. ECF No. 48-5 at 1 (May 27, 2009 letter from Peter Tompa). Given the Guild’s inability to provide the required information, CBP seized the defendant property on July 20, 2009 pursuant to 19 U.S.C. § 2606. See ECF No. 1 (Complaint) at ¶¶ 7--17 (providing statutory basis for detention, seizure, and forfeiture). B. INITIAL APA ACTION On February 11, 2010, before the government filed its complaint for forfeiture under 19 U.S.C. § 2609(a), the Guild filed a civil lawsuit challenging the seizure of the defendant property under the Administrative Procedure Act. See Complaint, Ancient Coin Collectors Guild v. U.S. Customs and Border Protection, et al., No. 10-cv-322 (D. Md. Feb. 11, 2010) [hereinafter, “ACCG 1”], ECF No. 1 [hereinafter, “ACCG 1 Complaint”]. The ACCG 1 Complaint characterized the Guild’s action as one “to test the legality of certain import restrictions . . . designed to bar entry into the United States of ancient coins of Cypriot and Chinese type of the sort widely and freely collected world-wide, including in Cyprus and China.” Id. at ¶ 1. In the ACCG 1 Complaint, the Guild requested that this Court declare the following: (a) “that the decision to impose import restrictions on ancient coins of Cypriot type is arbitrary and capricious because, pursuant to applicable law, State failed to disclose to Congress a rational basis for the reason, or reasons, behind State’s decision to reject the advice of its own advisory committee and also in departing from prior agency practice;” (b) “ that the decisions to impose import restrictions on ancient coins of both Cypriot and Chinese type are also arbitrary and capricious because they are both contrary to law and the product of bias, prejudgment and ex parte contact;” and (c) “that under the applicable statutes Customs must prove that the Cypriot or Chinese coins at issue were illicitly removed from Cypriot or Chinese find spots before they may be forfeited.” Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 5 of 30 6 Id. at ¶ 2. On June 25, 2010, the United States moved to dismiss the ACCG 1 Complaint for failure to state a claim. ACCG 1, ECF No. 13. On July 15, 2010, the Guild filed an Amended Complaint, recharacterizing its action as “a case to vindicate the freedom to trade in informational materials --- specifically the right of coin collectors and coin dealers, free from government interference, to trade in ancient coins.” ACCG 1, ECF No. 14 at ¶ 2. On August 8, 2011, following months of extensive briefing and a motions hearing, this Court issued a fifty-two page Memorandum Opinion granting the United States’ motion to dismiss the ACCG 1 Complaint. Ancient Coin Collectors Guild v. U.S. Customs and Border Protection, et al., 801 F. Supp. 2d 383 (D. Md. 2011) [hereinafter, “ACCG 1 Mem. Op.”]. At that time, this Court directly considered the Guild’s challenge to the validity of the relevant import restrictions, noting that the validity of the agency actions “imposing import restrictions on Cypriot and Chinese coins . . . is squarely before this court.” Id. at 399. Following a lengthy analysis, this Court determined that the agency actions in question were not reviewable under the APA. Id. at 404. This Court also specifically analyzed the Guild’s argument that the import restrictions should impose a requirement that the government prove a particular coin was “first discovered” in China or Cyprus before that coin could be seized. Id. at 406- 409. This Court determined that “import restrictions on Chinese and Cypriot coins, which have the effect of barring the importation of coins with unknown find spots, do not exceed the State Department’s authority under the CPIA.” Id. at 409. This Court also dismissed the remainder of the Guild’s claims. C. FOURTH CIRCUIT APPEAL The Guild appealed to the Fourth Circuit on September 21, 2011. The Fourth Circuit upheld this Court’s decision in a published opinion issued on October 22, 2012. Ancient Coin Collectors Guild v. U.S. Customs and Border Protection et al., 698 F.3d 171 (4th Cir. 2012) [hereinafter, “ACCG 1 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 6 of 30 7 Appeal”], cert. denied, 133 S. Ct. 1645 (2013). The Fourth Circuit determined that “a searching substantive review of the State Department’s diplomatic negotiations or [Cultural Property Advisory Committee’s] CPAC’s application of its archaeological expertise would be singularly inappropriate in this forum.” Id. at 179. Further, the Fourth Circuit was “not persuaded” by the Guild’s argument that the government “effectively read the ‘first discovered’ requirement out of the statute,” holding: As an initial matter, the CPIA is clear that defendants may designate items by “type or other appropriate classification” when establishing import restrictions. 19 U.S.C. § 2604. State and CBP are under no obligation to list restricted items with more specificity than the statute commands, and they are certainly not required to impose restrictions on a coin-by-coin basis. Such a requirement would make the statutory scheme utterly unworkable in practice. . . . In short, CBP need not demonstrate that the articles are restricted; rather, the statute “expressly places the burden on importers to prove that they are importable.” Id. at 182 (quoting ACCG 1 Mem. Op. at 408). The Fourth Circuit went on to hold: Here, CBP has listed the Chinese and Cypriot coins by type, in accordance with 19 U.S.C. § 2604, and CBP has detained them, in accordance with 19 U.S.C. § 2606. The detention was lawful as an initial matter, and the Guild had an opportunity at the time of detention to present evidence that the coins were subject to one of the CPIA exemptions. See id. As explained above, the Guild need not have documented every movement of its coins since ancient times. To comply with § 2606, the Guild need demonstrate only that the Cypriot coins left Cyprus prior to 2007 and that the Chinese coins left China prior to 2009. See id. It never so much as attempted to do so. Id. at 183. The Guild appealed to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court denied certiorari. 133 S. Ct. 1645 (2013). D. INSTANT ASSET FORFEITURE PROCEEDING The instant case is a civil forfeiture action filed on April 22, 2013, based on the same coins that were the subject of the ACCG 1 Complaint. ECF No. 1 (Complaint). The Guild filed an Answer on June 19, 2013. ECF No. 7 (Answer). In its answer, the Guild raised issues that were resolved by the Fourth Circuit’s 2012 decision, including the underlying validity of---and the procedures used to draft and promulgate---the regulations and procedures implementing the CPIA. The Guild’s answer Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 7 of 30 8 prompted a conference call with the Court to discuss the scope of the litigation and the scope of discovery that would be permitted in this case. Following that conference call, the government filed a motion to strike the Guild’s answer to the extent that the answer attempted to relitigate issues that had already been decided. ECF No. 12. Following a number of subsequent filings, this Court issued a memorandum opinion on June 3, 2014 clarifying scope of the litigation. ECF No. 22 (Mem. Op.). In this opinion, this Court observed that the Guild “seeks to expand the scope of this forfeiture action well beyond the limits set by the Fourth Circuit in its controlling opinion. . . . The Fourth Circuit’s opinion forecloses any further challenge to the validity of the regulations.” Id. at 1 (internal citations omitted). This Court set forth the government’s burden of proof, as defined by the Fourth Circuit, highlighting the Fourth Circuit’s finding that CBP listed the defendant property by type according to 19 U.S.C. § 2604, and that “[t]he detention was lawful as an initial matter.” Id. at 1 (quoting ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 183) (internal quotations omitted). This Court then noted that, with the government’s initial burden satisfied, the burden now shifted to the importer to show that the defendant property “was either (1) lawfully exported from its respective state while CPIA restrictions were in effect; (2) exported from its respective state more than ten years before it arrived in the United States; or (3) exported from its respective state before CPIA restrictions went into effect.” ECF No. 22 (Mem. Op.) at 1-2 (quoting ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 183) (internal quotations omitted). This Court’s memorandum opinion further held: [M]uch of the answer and most if not all of the affirmative defenses seek to relitigate issues concerning the validity of the regulations and the government’s decision to impose import restrictions on certain Cypriot and Chinese coins. For example, in its Surreply opposing the motion to strike, the Guild suggests that the government will be required to establish that the coins were “first discovered within” and “subject to the export control” of either Cyprus or Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 8 of 30 9 China. (Surreply, ECF No. 18, at 1-2.) The Guild is not correct. This argument also is foreclosed by the Fourth Circuit’s opinion. Ancient Coin Collectors, 698 F.3d at 181-82. ECF No. 22 (Mem. Op.) at 2. This Court accepted the Guild’s Amended Answer, but granted the government’s motion to strike the Amended Answer. ECF No. 22 (Mem. Op.). The Court instructed the parties to proceed with litigation “consistent with the limited issues to be resolved.” Id. The Guild filed a Second Amended Answer to the Complaint on February 25, 2015. ECF No. 36. E. DISCOVERY The parties proceeded with discovery throughout 2015 and 2016, hiring a mutually agreeable object conservator to photograph the defendant property2 and taking depositions of a Spink employee and of Jerry Stroter, one of the CBP officials involved in the decision to detain and seize the coins. But despite this Court’s instruction that litigation would be limited to the narrow set of issues to be resolved, the Guild continued to seek discovery into foreclosed issues. See generally, ECF No. 51 (Claimant’s motion to compel); ECF No. 47 (Claimant’s motion to test sufficiency of discovery responses). The Guild’s continued efforts to pursue topics foreclosed by this Court ultimately prompted the government to file a motion for a protective order and motion to strike the second amended answer. ECF No. 48 (motion for protective order); ECF No. 49 (motion to strike second amended answer). On February 5, 2016, the Court held a hearing to discuss the Guild’s perception of the scope of this litigation. At this hearing, counsel for the Guild admitted that “the information that we seek really focuses on EU export controls, Chinese export controls, the laws of Cyprus, the laws of China, and the circulation of coins.” Exhibit 1 (Feb. 5, 2016 hearing transcript) at 27:17--20. 2 To the extent this motion refers to specific coins, the coins are referenced by the number the object conservator assigned to them on July 2, 2015. See ECF No. 73-1 at 2 (coin documentation list). Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 9 of 30 10 Following this hearing, the Court issued a memorandum and order denying the Guild’s discovery motions and granting the government’s motion for a protective order. ECF No. 63 (Mem. Op. and Order). The Court held that the Guild was not entitled “to general discovery from the government about the circulation of Cypriot and Chinese coins,” noting that “to the extent the Guild argues that the government must prove ‘first discovery,’ beyond demonstrating that the coins at issue appear on the designated list, that argument is foreclosed by the CPIA and the Fourth Circuit opinion [in ACCG 1].” ECF No. 63 at 1, 2. The parties proceeded with discovery. The government deposed the Guild’s 30(b)(6) witness Wayne Sayles, executive director of the Guild. The Guild deposed CBP Officer Augustine Moore and the government’s 30(b)(6) witness, a Supervisory Program Manager in the Baltimore field office of CBP named Carlly Luckman. Ms. Luckman’s deposition ended shortly after the Guild’s counsel began a line of questioning pertaining to the foreclosed “first discovered” issues, as well as the government’s legal theories in the instant case, which the government instructed Ms. Luckman not to answer. See ECF Nos. 69--70 (letters to chambers from parties concerning discovery dispute). The parties corresponded with the Court regarding the disputed testimony, and the Court heard further arguments in a teleconference. See ECF Nos. 69--71. Following this teleconference, the Court declined to direct the government to provide additional 30(b)(6) deposition testimony: The Guild primarily seeks information concerning the government’s legal positions, which is generally beyond the scope of a proper 30(b)(6) deposition; moreover, the government will be required to outline its legal theories in its motion for summary judgment due to be filed next month. To the extent the Guild seeks factual information concerning the basis for seizure and detention, that appears to have been provided through the testimony of Jerry Stroter as supplemented by Carlly Luckman. ECF No. 71. Following this letter order, the parties agreed to proceed to summary judgment. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 10 of 30 11 III. LEGAL STANDARD On a motion for summary judgment, the moving party bears the burden of demonstrating that there are no genuine issues as to any material facts and that it is entitled to judgment as a matter of law. See Fed. R. Civ. P. 56(c)(2); see also, e.g., Anderson v. Liberty Lobby, Inc., 477 U.S. 242, 250 (1986); Celotex Corp. v. Catrett, 477 U.S. 317, 322 (1986). The Court must construe the facts alleged in the light most favorable to the nonmoving party. Anderson, 477 U.S. at 255. “The mere existence of a scintilla of evidence in support of the plaintiff’s position,” however, will not bar summary judgment in favor of the defendants. Id. at 252. Where “the nonmoving party has failed to make a sufficient showing on an essential element of [his] case, with respect to which [he] has the burden of proof,” the moving party is entitled to summary judgment. Celotex, 477 U.S. at 323. Thus, “a complete failure of proof concerning an essential element of the nonmoving party’s case necessarily renders all other facts immaterial.” Id. District Courts considering a motion for summary judgment have an “affirmative obligation . . . to prevent factually unsupported claims and defenses from proceeding to trial.” Drewitt v. Pratt, 999 F.2d 774, 778--79 (4th Cir. 1993) (internal quotations omitted). IV. ARGUMENT A. THE GOVERNMENT HAS MET ITS INITIAL BURDEN In an asset forfeiture proceeding under the CPIA, “the United States bears the initial burden to show that the seized property is listed in accordance with 19 U.S.C. § 2604 and properly subject to the import restrictions of 19 U.S.C. § 2606.” U.S. v. Eighteenth Century Peruvian Oil on Canvas, 597 F. Supp. 2d 618, 623 (E.D. Va. 2009). Once that initial showing is made, the burden of proof shifts to the Claimant “to establish, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the property is not subject to forfeiture, or to establish an applicable affirmative defense.” Id. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 11 of 30 12 1. This Court and the Fourth Circuit have found that the government met its initial burden. Here, there is no genuine dispute regarding whether the government met its initial burden, as both this Court and the Fourth Circuit have held that it has. In its published opinion in this case, the Fourth Circuit first noted: [T]he government bears the initial burden in forfeiture of establishing that the coins have been “listed in accordance with section 2604,” 19 U.S.C. § 2610, which is to say that they have been listed “by type or other appropriate classification” in a manner that gives “fair notice . . . to importers,” id. § 2604. ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 185. It further held that “CBP has listed the Chinese and Cypriot coins by type, in accordance with 19 U.S.C. [] § 2604, and CBP has detained them, in accordance with 19 U.S.C. § 2606. The detention was lawful as an initial matter.” Id. at 183. See also ECF No. 22 (Mem. Op.) (characterizing Fourth Circuit holdings as “discussing the anticipated forfeiture action”). This Court has made clear that “[l]isting by type and category is proper under the CPIA,” ECF No. 63, and that the Spink invoice “was sufficient to satisfy the Government’s burden of showing that the coins were among those ‘listed by the secretary’ on the designated lists for China and Cyprus.’” ACCG 1 Mem. Op., 801 F. Supp. 2d at 400. Here, the defendant coins were listed by type and category “in accordance with . . . § 2604” and were “detained . . . in accordance with 19 U.S.C. § 2606,” explicitly satisfying the government’s initial burden. ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 183. The Guild takes issue with the government’s lack of expert witnesses to further identify the coins. ECF No. 72-1 at 29 (Guild memo in support of summary judgment) (“[T]he government never retained an expert or produced any information whatsoever to establish that these coins are in fact restricted.”). However, such evidence is not needed in this case, given the “clarity and specificity of the [Spink] invoice.” ACCG 1 Mem. Op., 801 F. Supp. 2d at 400, n.12 (“Here, the government did not need Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 12 of 30 13 to rely on the types of evidence relied on in [Eighteenth Century Peruvian Oil and An Original Manuscript] because the invoice alone was sufficient to show that ACCG’s coins were among those listed on the designated lists for China and Cyprus.”). 2. The Guild’s own concessions establish the authenticity of the coins and the accuracy of the Spink invoice. Even if this Court had not already found in ACCG 1 that the Spink invoice obviated the need for the government to present an expert, the Guild itself made a number of admissions during discovery regarding the identity and authenticity of the defendant property such that expert testimony from the government was not necessary. First, the Guild admitted that all of the coins are authentic. ECF No. 72-5 at 89 (Guild response to request for admission number one). The Guild further largely admitted that the “information contained on the Spink Invoice,” including the descriptions of the coins, was accurate. Id. at 90 (Guild response to request for admission number five, admitting in part, qualifying admission only insofar as “there is a discrepancy between the number of coins listed and the number of coins that constitute the ‘Defendant Property’”). This reinforces the government’s ability to rely on the Spink invoice to establish that the coins “were among those listed on the designated lists for China and Cyprus.” ACCG 1 Mem. Op., 801 F. Supp. 2d at 400, n.12. In addition to admitting the coins’ authenticity and descriptions, the Guild also admitted that coins 1--6, 12--13, and 16--22 appear on the designated lists for Cyprus and China. ECF No. 72-5 at 90 (Guild responses to requests for admission numbers two and three, admitting that coins 1--6 and 12--13 appear on designated list for China); id. (admitting coins 16--22 “appear[] on the Designated List for coins of Cypriot type”). In his 30(b)(6) deposition, Wayne Sales of the Guild reinforced these admissions: 1 Q. Okay. You -- the Guild is not disputing Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 13 of 30 14 2 that the two China, Zhou Dynasty knife-shaped coins 3 circa 300 BC fall under the regulations; is that 4 right? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And the Guild is not disputing that the 7 one China, Zhou Dynasty spade-shaped coin circa 400 8 BC falls under the regulations? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. The Guild is not disputing that the three 11 China, Han Dynasty Wu Shu type coins circa 100 12 BC - AD 20 fall under the regulations? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. The Guild is not disputing that the three 15 China, Western Han Dynasty Ban Liang coin circa 200 16 to 150 BC fall under the regulations? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And the Guild is not disputing that any 19 of the Cypriot coins on the schedule of contents 20 fall under the regulations? 21 A. That's correct. Exhibit 2 (Sayles Dep.) at 108--09. The Guild does not dispute the identity of the coins, and they have “expressly disclaimed any ability to make such a showing” under 19 U.S.C. § 2606 “that the coins were legally importable.” ACCG 1 Mem. Op., 801 F. 2d at 400. The government met its initial burden for forfeiture, and the burden then shifted to the Guild to establish an applicable defense to the forfeiture. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 14 of 30 15 B. THE GUILD CANNOT ESTABLISH AN EXCEPTION TO FORFEITURE With its initial burden met, the government is entitled to summary judgment if the claimant fails to properly rebut the government’s initial showing by asserting an applicable defense under the CPIA. Id. See also, United States v. An Original Manuscript Dated Nov. 19, 1778, No. 96-6221, 1999 WL 97894, at *5 (S.D.N.Y. Feb. 22, 1999) (explaining that government is entitled to summary judgment on showing of probable cause that is “unrebutted by an applicable defense”). The Guild attempts to rebut the government’s initial showing in several ways. It claims that seven of the twenty-two coins do not appear on the designated lists.3 It presents scholarly evidence purporting to show that the defendant property was of a type and category that could have potentially left China or Cyprus before the CPIA regulations went into effect. And it argues that the exportation of the Cypriot coins was legal under UK and EU law and that, therefore, the CPIA did not restrict the Cypriot coins’ importation. These arguments do not establish an exception to forfeiture under the CPIA. 1. Scholarly evidence regarding the general circulation of Chinese and Cypriot coins is irrelevant and constitutes a challenge to the validity of the regulations. The Guild first argues that the defendant property was “exported from its respective state before CPIA restrictions went into effect” because the types of coins composing the defendant property generally circulated widely at the time of their original manufacture. See ECF No. 72-1 at 16--19 (ACCG memo in support of summary judgment). The Guild bases this argument on a scholarly analysis of “historical evidence for the mass circulation of ancient Cypriot and Chinese coins.” ECF No. 72-3 at 3 Any arguments regarding the seven disputed coins will soon be moot, as the government has begun the process of returning these coins to the Guild. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 15 of 30 16 6 (Mudd Declaration and Report).4 The Guild’s purported evidence regarding the coins’ circulation is irrelevant and impermissible because it is not tied to the circulation of the specific coins that constitute the defendant property, but instead to the general type and category of the coins that constitute the defendant property. See, e.g., ECF No. 72-1 at 16, n.7 (“We know few actual details about the history of the defendant coins. The Guild purposefully imported unprovenanced collectors’ coins . . .”). Instead of performing an analysis of the specific defendant property, Mr. Mudd’s report only offers general statements that coins such as the Defendant property could potentially have circulated “outside the modern borders” of China and Cyprus. See generally, ECF No. 72-3 at 6--8 (Mudd report). Mr. Mudd’s purported testimony about the general circulation of coins such as the defendant property is not a permissible forfeiture defense and is inadequate as a matter of law to establish under the CPIA that the specific coins at issue in this case were exported from their respective states before CPIA restrictions went into effect. The Guild must present evidence that the specific coins at issue--- those constituting the defendant property---left Cyprus and China before the restrictions went into effect. A nonspecific analysis of the circulation of the general type of coins at issue is irrelevant to the date of export of the exact coins at issue in this case. The Fourth Circuit already considered the Guild’s argument that “coins are portable objects” that are “minted in the main to be circulated.” ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 184. But the Fourth Circuit noted that the Guild’s argument about coin circulation “is not the whole story,” and still echoed the need for the Guild to “press a particularized challenge to 4 The government has argued that the evidentiary standards of 19 U.S.C. § 1615, which would allow the use of any admissible evidence or testimony to contest forfeiture, do not apply in this case because 19 U.S.C. §§ 2602, 2604, and 2606 specify the evidence permitted in a forfeiture case under the CPIA. See, e.g., ECF No. 55 at 5--7. Although the government does not yet waive this argument for purposes of appeal, it is not necessary for this court to determine which statute delineates permissible evidence in order to grant the government’s motion for summary judgment. Regardless of whether scholarly evidence is allowed as a general matter, the Guild’s purported scholarly evidence is both irrelevant and impermissible, as more fully explained in this section. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 16 of 30 17 the government’s assertion that the twenty-three coins are covered by import restrictions.” Id. at 185 (“If the government meets its burden, the Guild must then demonstrate that its coins are not subject to forfeiture in order to prevail.”) (emphasis added). Other asset forfeiture actions, both under the CPIA and not, also demonstrates that the evidence claimants must present to meet their burden must relate to the specific property at issue and not its general type or category. For example, in United States v. One Tyrannosaurus Bataar Skeleton, palentologists opined on the origin and excavation date of the specific tyrannosaurus skeleton at issue, considering “the distinctive coloring of the Defendant Property” which made it possible to distinguish the skeleton at issue “from fossils from equivalent age in neighboring countries.” No. 12 Civ. 4760, 2012 WL 5834899, at *2 (S.D.N.Y. Nov. 14, 2012). See also, e.g., U.S. v. Eighteenth Century Peruvian Oil, 597 F. Supp. 2d 618, 624--25 (reviewing claimant’s evidence as to the specific ownership and origin of the specific painting at issue). United States v. All Right, Title & Interest in Real Prop. & Appurtenances, 983 F.2d 396, 405 (2d Cir. 1993) (requiring claimant “to prove [] the source of the funds in the two subject bank accounts”). A particularized challenge is required not only by precedent but also logically by the CPIA. Allowing the Guild to use generalized evidence regarding the circulation of types and categories of coins to defeat forfeiture would eviscerate the purpose of the designated list because it would permit the Guild to contest forfeiture on the basis of the type and category of the coins. The CPIA allows State and CBP to designate items by “type or other appropriate classification.” ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 182 (quoting 19 U.S.C. § 2604). This statutory scheme is based on the conclusion that “Chinese and Cypriot coins were first discovered in those two countries and form part of each nation’s cultural heritage.” Id. at 182. The Guild’s arguments regarding the circulation of the general type and category of the coins at Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 17 of 30 18 issue do not demonstrate the origin of the defendant property, but rather challenges the validity of the statutory scheme that includes the type and category of coin at issue on the designated list. A challenge such as this to the validity of the regulations is “foreclose[d]” by the Fourth Circuit’s opinion. ECF No. 22 at 1 (Mem. Op.). The Guild’s arguments regarding the general circulation of coins of a type and category like the defendant property is not a “particularized challenge” to forfeiture as required by the Fourth Circuit, but rather a challenge to the underlying validity of the government’s listing of coins by type and category. Thus, the Guild’s purported evidence regarding coin circulation in general is irrelevant and is not a valid forfeiture defense. 2. Scholarly analysis of the export control status of the coins under foreign law is irrelevant and not a proper forfeiture defense. The Guild’s second defense to forfeiture is that the export of the Cypriot coins was lawful under U.K. and E.U. law. ECF No. 72-1 at 19--24. Not only does this defense fail to address the Chinese coins at issue,5 but it is both an impermissible challenge to the validity of the regulations and also irrelevant to the material issues regarding forfeitability. The Guild’s argument that the coins were legally imported under U.K. and E.U. law is an argument that the coins were not “subject to export control” under 19 U.S.C. § 2601(2) (defining 5 The Guild appears to have abandoned its argument that the export of the Chinese coins was lawful under Chinese law. Not only does the Guild fail to mention Chinese law in its motion for summary judgment, but Mr. McCullough himself cannot conclude that the Chinese coins were exported legally. The most Mr. McCullough can say is that the Chinese coins “could have been exported” from Hong Kong, but neither he nor the Guild provide any evidence that the coins actually were exported from Hong Kong. ECF No. 72-4 at 1. See also id. at 9 (“If the Chinese coins were exported from Hong Kong, then Chinese cultural property laws do not apply in Hong Kong and Hong Kong law would allow the export of the coins without an exit permit.”). Even if the export law of China were a proper defense to forfeiture, the Guild presents no non-hypothetical evidence that the exportation of the Chinese coins was legal under Chinese or Hong Kong law. C.f. Section IV.B.2, supra (arguing that contesting export status is equivalent to challenging validity of regulations, which is foreclosed by Fourth Circuit opinion). Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 18 of 30 19 “archaeological or ethnological material of the State Party” as an item that “is subject to export control by[] the State Party”). In other words, by arguing that coins falling within the type and category of coins constituting the defendant property were legally exportable under U.K. and E.U. law, the Guild argues that the coins should never have been included on the designated lists in the first place. This argument has been foreclosed by the Fourth Circuit’s opinion, as well as by this Court. ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 182 (“[The regulations and procedures implementing the CPIA] involve[] a sensitive area of foreign affairs where Congress itself has delegated the Executive Branch significant discretion. Given that approach, a searching substantive review of the State Department’s diplomatic negotiations or CPAC’s application of its archeological expertise would be singularly inappropriate in this forum.”); Id. at 183 (“Here, CBP has listed the Chinese and Cypriot coins by type, in accordance with 19 U.S.C. § 2604 . . . . The detention was lawful as an initial matter . . . .”); ECF No. 22 at 2 (Mem. Op.) (“[T]he Guild suggests that the government will be required to establish that the coins were ‘first discovered within’ and ‘subject to the export control’ of either Cyprus or China. The Guild is not correct. This argument is also foreclosed by the Fourth Circuit’s opinion.” (internal citations omitted)). The Guild’s argument is an attempt to “relitigate issues concerning the validity of the regulations and the government’s decision to impose import restrictions on certain Cypriot and Chinese coins”---challenges which are not permitted in this litigation and were “foreclosed” by the Fourth Circuit. ECF No. 22 at 2 (Mem. Op.). Moreover, the export control status of the coins does not bear on any material fact relating to forfeitability under the CPIA. This Court has held that once the defendant property is designated by “type” and placed on the designated lists, it “may not be imported into the United States without specific documentation showing that it is eligible for import.” ACCG 1 Memorandum Opinion, 698 F.3d at 182- -83 (citing 19 U.S.C. § 2606). The Fourth Circuit explained the requirements of § 2606 as follows: Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 19 of 30 20 If an article is covered by CPIA import restrictions, it may not be brought into the United States unless (1) it is accompanied by formal documentation certifying that it was lawfully exported from the country that has requested the import restrictions, 19 U.S.C. § 2606(a); (2) there is “satisfactory evidence” that the article was exported from the State Party at least ten years before it arrived in the United States and the importer owned it for less than one year before it arrived in the United States, id. § 2606(b)(2)(A); or (3) there is “satisfactory evidence” that the article was exported from the State Party before the import restrictions took effect, id. § 2606(b)(2)(B). ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 176--77. The export control status of the Cypriot coins in the U.K. has no bearing on whether the coins lawfully left Cyprus. The requirement of the CPIA is not that the coins be lawfully exported from whatever State Party to the 1970 Convention that they happen to be in at the time of their export, but rather that the defendant property either is “(1) lawfully exported from its respective state while CPIA restrictions were in effect; (2) exported from its respective state more than ten years before it arrived in the United States; or (3) exported from its respective state before CPIA restrictions went into effect.” ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 183 (citing 19 U.S.C. § 2606). In the case of the Cypriot coins, their “respective state” is Cyprus, not the U.K. See ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 183 (interpreting § 2606 “respective state” language as meaning “the country that has requested import restrictions”). Although the Guild argues that E.U. law is binding on Cyprus, this argument has no bearing on whether the Cypriot coins were lawfully imported from Cyprus pursuant to 19 U.S.C. § 2606. The Guild’s argument regarding U.K. and E.U. export laws is an impermissible challenge to the validity of the regulations. Moreover, it is irrelevant to whether the Cypriot coins were legally imported under § 2606, and it does not apply to the Chinese coins at issue. It is not a proper forfeiture defense. C. THE GOVERNMENT HAS ESTABLISHED ENTITLEMENT TO FORFEITURE Because the government met its initial burden, and because the Guild failed to establish a valid exception to forfeiture, the government is entitled to summary judgment as to the forfeitability of coins Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 20 of 30 21 1--6, 12--13, and 16--22. The government is beginning the process of returning the remaining coins, numbered 7--11 and 14--15. D. THE GUILD IS NOT ENTITLED TO SUMMARY JUDGMENT The Guild’s arguments that it is entitled to summary judgment may be dispatched in short order.6 1. The Guild’s expert reports are irrelevant to any material fact. The Guild argues that it is entitled to summary judgment because its “unrebutted” expert reports establish that the defendant property was potentially exported from its respective states before CPIA restrictions went into effect and because the export of the Cypriot coins was legal under U.K. and E.U. law. ECF No. 72.1 at 15--24 (Guild memo in support of summary judgment). As discussed in Section IV.B., supra, the opinions offered by the Guild’s experts are irrelevant to any material fact or applicable law in this case. Their opinions do not entitle the Guild to summary judgment. See Section IV.B, supra (explaining irrelevance and inapplicability of Mudd and McCullough opinions). 2. The government was not required to produce an expert to identify the defendant property. The Guild also believes it is entitled to summary judgment because the government “failed to even meet the minimal burden imposed in the Court’s June 3, 2014 Order to establish all the coins that were seized appear on the designated list.” ECF No. 72-1 at 28 (Guild memo in support of summary judgment). The Guild takes issue with the Chinese coins numbered 7--11 and 14--15, but the government does not seek summary judgment as to these coins and is beginning the process of returning them to the Guild. 6 The government does not concede the validity of any of the Guild’s arguments in favor of summary judgment, regardless of whether those arguments are specifically addressed herein. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 21 of 30 22 As to the remaining coins, the Guild argues that the government is required to “verif[y] through the use of expert opinion whether each Chinese coin seized is of a type that appears on the designated list for China.” ECF No. 72-1 at 28--29. The Guild offers no support for this contention, and indeed no support for the contention exists. This Court held in ACCG 1 that the government was not required to rely on expert testimony “because the [Spink] invoice alone was sufficient to show that ACCG’s coins were among those listed on the designated lists for China and Cyprus.” ACCG 1 Mem. Op., 801 F. Supp. 2d at 400 n.12. Moreover, the Guild conceded that: (1) coins 1--6, 12--13, and 16--22 appear on the designated lists for China and Cyprus; and (2) the Spink invoice describing and identifying the coins was accurate, save for the discrepancy in the number of coins on the invoice and the number constituting the defendant property. No expert testimony is required to identify coins 1--6, 12--13, and 16--22 as being subject to forfeiture. See Section IV.A.2, supra (explaining legal impact of Guild’s concessions). For its part, the Guild is not entitled to summary judgment in its favor as to coins 7--11 and 14-- 15. Although the Guild did not concede that the coins numbered 7--11 and 14--15 appear on the designated list for coins from China, the Guild offered no evidence to identify these coins as not appearing on the designated list, and thus failed to rebut the government’s initial showing regarding these coins. ECF No. 72-5 at 90 (Guild response to request for admission number two) (“The Guild . . . has no working knowledge of the Chinese language and is, therefore, unable to admit or deny whether coin numbers 7--11, 14--15 are of types that appear on the Chinese designated list.”). Regardless, the government has begun the process of returning these coins---and only these coins---to the Guild, mooting the Guild’s arguments as to those coins. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 22 of 30 23 3. The Court should not reconsider its previous rulings. The Guild again argues that the government is required to establish that the defendant property was “first discovered within” and “subject to the export control” of China or Cyprus. The Guild has made this argument in nearly every substantive filing it has made in this case and in ACCG 1, going back to 2010. It has lost that argument at every stage. The Guild’s arguments are familiar to this Court at this point, as are the government’s responses to those arguments. The Fourth Circuit has already rejected the Guild’s arguments, holding that no “coin-by-coin” demonstration of the location of first discovery was required: According to the Guild, the government and the district court effectively read the “first discovered” requirement out of the statute. [Guild Brief] at 24. We are not persuaded. As an initial matter, the CPIA is clear that defendants may designate items by “type or other appropriate classification” when establishing import restrictions. 19 U.S.C. § 2604. State and CBP are under no obligation to list restricted items with more specificity than the statute commands, and they are certainly not required to impose restrictions on a coin-by-coin basis. Such a requirement would make the statutory scheme utterly unworkable in practice. . . . In short, CBP need not demonstrate that the articles are restricted; rather, the statute “expressly places the burden on importers to prove that they are importable.” ACCG 1 Appeal at 182 (quoting ACCG 1 Memorandum Opinion at 408). The District Court emphasized this holding in its Memorandum Opinion: [T]he Guild suggests that the government will be required to establish that the coins were “first discovered within” and “subject to the export control” of either Cyprus or China. (Surreply, ECF No. 18, at 1-2.) The Guild is not correct. This argument also is foreclosed by the Fourth Circuit’s opinion. ECF No. 22 (Mem. Op.) at 2. Undeterred, the Guild repeats its argument that the Court’s rulings “alter the burden of proof assigned by Congress” and raise “Fifth Amendment Due Process concerns.” ECF No. 72-1 at 35 (Guild memo in support of summary judgment). In ACCG 1, the Guild waged and lost this challenge to the nature of the government’s burden under 19 U.S.C. § 2610, with the Fourth Circuit holding that the Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 23 of 30 24 regulations and procedures implementing the CPIA do not illegally shift the burden of proof for forfeiture. ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 182 (quoting ACCG 1 Mem. Op., 801 F. Supp. 2d 383, 408 (D. Md. 2011)). This Court echoed that holding in its memorandum opinion in the instant case. ECF No. 22 (Mem. Op.). The Guild cites to what it decries as “the Fourth Circuit’s . . . false assumption that CPAC supported import restrictions on Cypriot and Chinese coins” as a reason that this Court should reverse itself and apply the Guild’s burden of proof framework. ECF No. 72-1 at 37. See also, e.g., id. at 7; id. at 10 (“the Appellate Court wrongly assumed that CPAC agreed with the government’s decision- making”). There is no basis for this characterization of the Fourth Circuit’s opinion. The Guild’s opening brief in the ACCG 1 Appeal included the same information about CPAC’s alleged conclusions, nearly verbatim, as those presented in the Guild’s instant motion for summary judgment. See Corrected Brief for Appellant, ACCG 1 Appeal, No. 11-2012, at 10--12 (Dkt. No. 58) (quoting Robert Korver and Jay Kislak, as in instant motion for summary judgment); id. at 33 (arguing that “CPAC’s past Chairman has stated under oath that CPAC recommended against import restrictions on coins, but this recommendation was overruled by State, which then misled Congress and the public about it”). The Fourth Circuit considered the Guild’s briefing but found no merit in this argument. After the Guild lost its appeal, the Guild petitioned for a re-hearing before the Fourth Circuit and made the same arguments about CPAC. See Appellant’s Petition for Rehearing, ACCG 1 Appeal, No. 11-2012, at 7, 14--15 (Dkt. No. 67). The Fourth Circuit again found no merit in this argument. See Order Denying Petition for Rehearing En Banc, ACCG 1 Appeal, No. 11-2012 (Dkt. No. 69). The Fourth Circuit did not operate under any “wrong[] assumption,” the Court simply did not agree with the Guild’s arguments regarding CPAC. See ACCG 1 Appeal, 698 F.3d at 182 (considering role of CPAC and citing 74 Fed. Reg. 2,839- Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 24 of 30 25 -42 and 72 Fed. Reg. 38,470--73 for proposition that “CBP listed the articles in question in the Federal Register by “type”---but only after State and CPAC had determined that each type was part of the respective cultural patrimonies of China and Cyprus”); id. (“Plaintiffs have given us no reason to question CPAC's conclusion, as adopted by State, as to where the types of cultural property at issue were discovered. To the contrary, it was hardly illogical for CPAC to conclude that, absent evidence suggesting otherwise, Chinese and Cypriot coins were first discovered in those two countries and form part of each nation's cultural heritage.”). Regardless, arguments regarding the CPAC are ultimately a sideshow. The CPAC is an advisory committee directed by the CPIA to provide views and recommendations to the President as to whether an agreement should be entered into under the CPIA in response to requests by States Parties to the 1970 Convention. 19 U.S.C. § 2605(f). After performing this advisory role, as the CPAC did with respect to requests by China and Cyprus, it was then the prerogative of the President or his designee to consider CPAC’s reports and to determine whether to enter into agreements with China and Cyprus under the CPIA. Id. § 2602. Once those agreements (MOUs) were negotiated and entered into force, CBP and the Department of the Treasury, in consultation with the State Department, promulgated regulations designating the material covered by those MOUs. Id. § 2604. Not only is the Guild foreclosed from challenging the validity of the regulations, which govern the importation of the defendant property in this proceeding, but the views and recommendations of the CPAC, as an advisory committee, do not bear on the validity of the MOUs negotiated and concluded between the United States and Cyprus and China or the regulations promulgated pursuant thereto. Id. The Guild’s umpteenth effort to disturb the previous rulings of both this Court and the Fourth Circuit should not be granted. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 25 of 30 26 4. The Guild negated its own fair notice argument, to the extent it even makes one. To the extent the Guild argues that the regulations at issue failed to give “fair notice . . . to importers . . . as to what material is subject to such restrictions,” the Guild’s own admissions, and indeed the very existence of this litigation, make that argument impossible to sustain. ECF No. 72-1 at 32 (Guild memo in support of summary judgment, quoting 19 U.S.C. § 2604) (internal quotations omitted). See also, e.g., id. at 29 (“The Guild also respectfully requests the Court to reconsider its prior rulings related to the burden of proof and fair notice.”). The Guild admitted that in 2009 it purposefully imported the Defendant Property into the United States in order to test the legality of import restrictions imposed on ancient Cypriot and Chinese coins. Exhibit 3 at 4 (Guild response to request for admissions, numbers eleven and thirteen). In so doing, the Guild deliberately consulted the relevant regulations and determined “what material is subject to [import] restrictions,” and then imported exactly those items. ECF No. 72-1 at 32 (Guild memo in support of summary judgment). John Pett of Spink confirmed that Spink and the Guild gathered coins meant to “challenge * * * the restrictions the US was trying to impose on coins.” Exhibit 4 (Pett Dep.) at 34:4--10, 34:20--35:3. Based on these regulations, Spink and the Guild had the “full expectation [the coins] would be seized.” Id. at 37:8--21. See also, Exhibit 5 (ACCG 00064--66) (Email from Wayne Sayles of ACCG to Paul Dawson at Spink regarding “. . . your kind offer to supply an assortment of coins for a test of the import restrictions imposed on ancient coins of Cyprus and China”). Moreover, Wayne Sayles, the executive director of the Ancient Coin Collector’s Guild and the Guild’s 30(b)(6) witness testified repeatedly that the Guild selected the specific coins constituting the Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 26 of 30 27 defendant property by consulting the regulations and identifying coins that would be subject to seizure under the regulations. Page 64 10 Q. In determining what specific Chinese and 11 Cypriot coins to import, how did you select the 12 type of coin? 13 A. Well, we selected the type of coin based 14 on the import restrictions in place at the time. 15 Q. So you -- tell me what you mean by that. 16 A. Well, take the Cypriot coins, for 17 example. We knew that there were certain cutoffs 18 by date. You know, coins after a certain date were 19 not restricted, and coins before that date were, 20 and so we, we would look for coins that applied 21 under the restriction; otherwise, they wouldn't be 22 seized or detained. So we obviously wanted the 23 coins to be detained. . . . Page 65 4 . . . We did 5 want to do that. We wanted unprovenanced coins. 6 Q. So in order to find coins that would be 7 detained -- 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- you looked to the regulations 10 governing the import of coins? 11 A. Initially, yes. 12 Q. And you used those regulations to find 13 specific coins that fell under the regulations? 14 A. More or less -- 15 Q. Okay. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 27 of 30 28 16 A. -- yes. Exhibit 2 (Sayles Dep.) at 64:10-65:16. See also, id. at 66:1--67:6 (explaining Guild’s use of regulations to select coins that would be subject to detention); id. at 75:21--76:6 (explaining Cypriot and Chinese coins were selected “so that they would apply under the restrictions, under these specific restrictions, not some other MOU, but this specific MOU that we were challenging”); id. at 77--79 (describing coin selection based on content of relevant MOUs and regulations); id. at 85:13--86:1 (explaining selection of Chinese coins based on relevant MOU). Given the Guild’s ability to read the relevant regulations and determine what coins would be subject to detention and forfeiture in the United States for the purposes of this test case, the Guild cannot argue that the regulations fail to give “fair notice . . . to importers . . . as to what material is subject to such restrictions.” 19 U.S.C. § 2604. V. CONCLUSION For the foregoing reasons, the government is entitled to summary judgment as to the forfeitability of coins 1--6, 12--13, and 16--22. The Guild’s motion for summary judgment should be denied. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 28 of 30 29 Respectfully submitted, ROD J. ROSENSTEIN United States Attorney /s/ Molissa H. Farber (Bar No. 802255) Assistant United States Attorney 36 S. Charles Street, 4th Floor Baltimore, Maryland 21201 Ph. 410-209-4862 Fx. 410-962-2310 Attorney for the United States of America Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-1 Filed 08/22/16 Page 29 of 30 30 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE I certify that on August 22, 2016, a copy of the foregoing Memorandum in Support of the United States’ Cross-Motion for Summary Judgment and Opposition to Claimant’s Motion for Summary Judgment was caused to be served by filing that document with the Clerk of the Court under the Court’s CM/ECF system, which electronically transmits a copy to the registered participants, and paper copies were mailed by first class mail, postage prepaid, to those identified as nonregistered participants. /s/ Molissa H. 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îî Ù«·´¼ · ½±²½»®²»¼ ¿¾±«¬ ¬¸» ·²º±®³¿¬·±² ¬¸¿¬ ¬¸» »¨°»®¬ ¬¸¿¬ îí ©» ¸¿ª» ²±¬ §»¬ ¼»·¹²¿¬»¼ ©±«´¼ ¸¿ª»ô ¬¸»§ ©±«´¼ ¸¿ª» ¿½½» îì ¬± ¬¸¿¬ ·²º±®³¿¬·±² ¬¸®±«¹¸ ¬¸» ¼·½±ª»®§ °®±½»ò ̸»§ ½±«´¼ îë ¼»°±» ¬¸» »¨°»®¬ ·º ¬¸»§ ´·µ»¼ò íê ï ÌØÛ ÝÑËÎÌæ ѵ¿§ò ß´´ ®·¹¸¬ò ß²§¬¸·²¹ ¿²§¾±¼§ î ¸¿²ù¬ ¸¿¼ ¿ ½¸¿²½» ¬± ¿§á ѵ¿§ò ̸¿²µ §±« ª»®§ ³«½¸ò × í ¸±«´¼ ·«» ¿ ®«´·²¹ ¸±®¬´§ò ì ÓÎò ÌÑÓÐßæ ̸¿²µ §±«ô DZ«® ر²±®ò ë øЮ±½»»¼·²¹ ¿¼¶±«®²»¼ò÷ ê é è ç ïð ×ô Ö¿½¯«»´·²» ͱª·½¸ô ÎÐÎô ÎÓÎô ÝÎÎô Ѻº·½·¿´ ݱ«®¬ λ°±®¬»®ô ¼± ¸»®»¾§ ½»®¬·º§ ¬¸¿¬ ¬¸» º±®»¹±·²¹ · ¿ ½±®®»½¬ ïï ¬®¿²½®·°¬ º®±³ ¬¸» ¬»²±¹®¿°¸·½ ®»½±®¼ ±º °®±½»»¼·²¹ ·² ¬¸» ¿¾±ª»ó»²¬·¬´»¼ ³¿¬¬»®ò ïî ïí ÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁÁ ïì Ö¿½¯«»´·²» ͱª·½¸ ÜßÌÛ Ñºº·½·¿´ ݱ«®¬ λ°±®¬»® ïë ïê ïé ïè ïç îð îï îî îí îì îë Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-2 Filed 08/22/16 Page 9 of 13 í é ó ó ó ó ó É Û ù Î Û Å ï à ï ê æ ê ó ï ó ï í ó ï ï è í Å î à ï æ ê å î æ í ï ê ð ð Í Å ï à ï î æ ï è ó î ó î ê ð î ê Å ï à ì æ ï ç ó ß ó ß Þ × Ô × Ì Ç Å î à ç æ é ô ï ï ß Þ Ñ Ë Ì Å í í à î æ ï ì å í æ ç å ç æ í å ï ð æ î ð ô î ï å ï ï æ ï ë å ï î æ ï ð ô ï ï ô ï ë å ï ë æ î å ï é æ ï ê å ï è æ ë ô é ô î ì å ï ç æ î å î ð æ ç å î ï æ ï å î î æ î ð å î í æ ï î å î ì æ î î å î ë æ ï ð å î ê æ ï ë ô ï ç å î è æ î ï å î ç æ ï è ô î ð å í ï æ ï î å í ì æ ï ë å í ë æ ï è ô ï ç ô î ð ô î î ß Þ Ñ Ê Û Å ï à ï ç æ ì ß Þ Ñ Ê Û ó Û Ò Ì × Ì Ô Û Ü Å ï à í ê æ ï ï ß Ý Ý Û Í Í Å ï à í ë æ î í ß Ý Î Ñ Í Í Å ï à ï é æ ç ß Ý Ì × Ñ Ò Å ç à ì æ ë ô ê å ï ï æ ï è å ï ê æ ï ë ô ï è å ï è æ ï é å î ì æ ï í ô ï ç å í í æ ï ð ß Ý Ì × Ñ Ò Í Å ï à í í æ î ð ß Ý Ì × Ê Û Å ï à í ð æ î í ß Ý Ì Ë ß Ô Å î à í æ ë å î î æ î ì ß Ý Ì Ë ß Ô Ô Ç Å é à è æ ì ô ï í å ï é æ ï ç å î ë æ ï ì ô î ì å î é æ î å í í æ î ì ß Ü ß Ó Í Å ï à ï ð æ î ë ß Ü Ü × Ì × Ñ Ò ß Ô Å ï à í ð æ ï ß Ü Ü Î Û Í Í Å í à í æ î î å î è æ ï ë å í î æ î ß Ü Ü Î Û Í Í Û Ü Å ï à î æ ï ç ß Ü Ö Ñ Ë Î Ò Û Ü Å ï à í ê æ ë ß Ü Ó × Í Í × Þ Ô Û Å ï à î í æ î ð ß Ü Ó × Í Í × Ñ Ò Í Å î à î ë æ ê ô ï ê ß Ú Ú ß × Î Í Å î à í ð æ è ô î î ß Ú Ú Û Ý Ì Í Å ï à î æ î ì ß Ú Ú × Î Ó ß Ì × Ê Û Å ï à ï ï æ ë ß Ú Ì Û Î Å è à ï ï æ ï å ï í æ î î å ï ì æ ë å ï ë æ î ð å î ð æ ï ê å î é æ î í å î è æ ë ß Ù ß × Ò Å ë à î æ ï ð å ï í æ î ë å ï ç æ è å í í æ ï ð å í ë æ ï í ß Ù ß × Ò Í Ì Å ï à é æ í ß Ù Î Û Û Å ì à ë æ ï è å ê æ ï ô î å î î æ î î ß Ù Î Û Û ß Þ Ô Û Å ï à î ï æ é ß Ù Î Û Û Ü Å ì à ï ë æ ç å î ï æ î ð ô î í å í î æ ï ê ß Ø Û ß Ü Å î à ï ï æ ï é å í ð æ î ß Ø Ñ Ô Ü Å ï à î é æ é ß × Ó Û Ü Å î à ï ê æ ç å î ð æ ì ß Ô × Ê Û Å î à í ï æ ï é å í î æ ì ß Ô Ô Ñ É Å î à ï ð æ ï î å í ë æ î ß Ô Ô Ñ É Û Ü Å ë à ï ð æ ï é å ï ê æ ï ë å ï ç æ î ì å î ð æ ï ê å î ê æ î ë ß Ô Ô Ñ É × Ò Ù Å î à ç æ ç å ï ð æ ê ß Ô Ô Ñ É Í Å ï à é æ è ß Ô Ñ Ò Ù Å ï à ê æ ï ë ß Ô Î Û ß Ü Ç Å è à ê æ ï ê å ç æ è ô ï é å î ð æ î ë å î í æ é å î ç æ î ë å í ì æ î ì å í ë æ î ð ß Ô Ì Ø Ñ Ë Ù Ø Å ï à ë æ ë ß Ó Û Ò Ü Û Ü Å î à í æ ï í å î è æ î ð ß Ó Û Ò Ü Ó Û Ò Ì Å ï à ï ï æ î ð ß Ó Û Î × Ý ß Å î à ï æ ì å î æ í ß Ó Û Î × Ý ß Ò Å ï à ï í æ ï ë ß Ó Ñ Ò Ù Å ï à î 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è å ï í æ î ß Î Ý Ø Û Ñ Ô Ñ Ù × Ý ß Ô Å ï à ç æ î ï ß Î Û ß Í Å í à ë æ ï í å î î æ ï ô í ß Î Û Ò ù Ì Å î à è æ ï ï ô ï î ß Î Ù Ë Û Ü Å ï à ï ç æ ë ß Î Ù Ë Û Í Å ï à î ð æ ï ì ß Î Ù Ë × Ò Ù Å ï à ï ð æ ï ë í è ß Î Ù Ë Ó Û Ò Ì Å ì à ë æ ï î å ï ï æ ï å ï ç æ î ì å î ë æ î ß Î Ù Ë Ó Û Ò Ì Í Å ï à ï è æ í ß Î Ñ Ë Ò Ü Å ï à ï î æ ï é ß Î Ì × Ú ß Ý Ì Í Å î à ï í æ ï é å ï é æ ï ç ß Í Õ Û Ü Å ï ð à ï è æ ï ê å î ë æ ï ì ô ï ë ô ï é ô ï è å î é æ î ë å î è æ ì ß Í Õ × Ò Ù Å ç à ï ê æ ì ô ê ô é ô î î å ï è æ ï ð å î ï æ î ï å î í æ ï ë å î ë æ î ð ß Í Í Û Ì Å ê à ì æ ï î ô ï ë ô ï ê å ë æ ê ô ï í ô î ð ß Í Í Ñ Ý × ß Ì Û Ü Å ï à í ï æ î î ß Í Í Ñ Ý × ß Ì × Ñ Ò Å ï à ï í æ ï ë ß Í Í Ë Ó Û Ü Å ï à ï í æ î î ß Í Í Ë Ó × Ò Ù Å î à ï í æ ï ï å í î æ ï ê ß Í Í Ë Ó Ð Ì × Ñ Ò Å ï à í í æ ï ï ß Ì Ì ß Ý Ø Ó Û Ò Ì Í Å ï à î ê æ ï ê ß Ì Ì ß Ý Õ Å í à ç æ é å ï ð æ ï î å í ï æ ï ß Ì Ì Û Ò Ì × Ñ Ò Å ë à è æ ï ì å ï è æ ï í å í ð æ î ë å í ï æ ï ï å í ë æ ï í ß Ì Ì Ñ Î Ò Û Ç Å î à ï ð æ î ë å î é æ é ß Ì Ì Ñ 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æ é ô ï ð å î ì æ î î Ü Ñ × Ò Ù Å î à í ì æ î ï ô î î Ü Î ß Ú Ì Å ï à î é æ î ì ó Û ó Û ß Í × Ô Ç Å ï à î î æ î í Û Ú Ú Û Ý Ì Å î à ï î æ é ô è Û Ú Ú Û Ý Ì × Ê Û Å ï à í ì æ ë Û × Ì Ø Û Î Å ï à î è æ ì Û Ó Ð Ø ß Í × Æ Û Å ï à í í æ ï ð Û Ó Ð × Î Û Å î à ï ì æ î ì Û Ó Ð × Î Û Í Å î à ï ì æ î í ô î ë Û Ó Ð Ô Ñ Ç Û Û Å ï à î é æ ï î Û Ó Ð Ô Ñ Ç Û Û Í Å ì à î é æ ï í ô ï ì ô ï é å í ï æ î í Û Ò Ñ Ë Ù Ø Å ï à î é æ ï î Û Ò Ì × Î Û Å î à î ê æ í å î è æ î ð Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-2 Filed 08/22/16 Page 10 of 13 ì ï Û Ò Ì × Ì Ô Û Ü Å è à ï ï æ ë ô î î ô î í å ï í æ ï î å ï è æ î å î ð æ î ì å í í æ ï î å í ì æ ï î Û Ï Ë × Ê ß Ô Û Ò Ì Å ï à ï ð æ é Û Í Ï Ë × Î Û Å ï à ï æ î ð Û Í Í Û Ò Ì × ß Ô Ô Ç Å ï ï à í æ ï ì å ç æ é ô ï ð å ï ï æ ï ï ô ï î å ï ë æ ç å ï ê æ î ô î í å ï ç æ î ë å î è æ ï è å í ì æ ï ç Û Í Ì ß Þ Ô × Í Ø Å é à ì æ î ð å é æ í å ï ï æ ë å ï è æ ç å î ë æ ï í å í í æ î ë å í ì æ í Û Í Ì ß Þ Ô × Í Ø Û Ü Å î à ê æ ë å ï í æ ï ï Û Ì Ø Ò Ñ Ô Ñ Ù × Ý ß Ô Å ï à ç æ î ï Û Ê Û Ò Ì Å ï à ç æ î ï Û Ê Û Î Ç Å ï à í í æ ï ç Û Ê Û Î Ç Ì Ø × Ò Ù Å î à î ë æ ï î ô ï ç Û Ê × Ü Û Ò Ý Û Å ë ð à î æ î ð å í æ ï ô î ô î ì å ì æ ï ô ï ç å ë æ ì ô î ë å ê æ ç ô ï ç ô î ï ô î î å é æ ï ð ô ï ï ô ï î ô ï ë ô ï ç ô î ë å è æ í ô ì ô ç ô ï ï ô î î ô î ë å ç æ ï ð ô î î ô î í å ï ð æ é å ï ï æ ë ô ê ô é ô ï í å ï ë æ í ô ì ô ï ì å ï è æ ç å ï ç æ ì ô ï ð ô ï î ô ï ê ô ï è å î ð æ ê å î í æ î ð ô î í å í ë æ ï ì ô ï ë ô ï è ô î ð Û Ê × Í Ý Û Î ß Ì Û Å ï à í ë æ ï ê Û È ß Ý Ì Ô Ç Å î à ê æ ï é å ï ç æ ï Û È ß Ó Ð Ô Û Å ê à ì æ ï í å é æ ï ç å è æ ï î å ï ê æ ï ç å ï é æ î ô ï é Û È Ý Ø ß Ò Ù Û Å ï à ï í æ ï é Û È Û Ó Ð Ì Û Ü Å ï à ì æ ï ï Û È Û Ó Ð Ì × Ñ Ò Å ï à ï ï æ ê Û È Ø × Þ × Ì Å î à í ð æ ê ô ï í Û È × Ì Û Ü Å î à ï ì æ ì å ï ë æ î í Û È Ð ß Ò Í × Ê Û Å ï à í æ ê Û È Ð Û Ý Ì ß Ì × Ñ Ò Å ï à î è æ ê Û È Ð Û Î Ì Å î ï à í æ ï å é æ î î å è æ ï í å ç æ í ô ì ô î í å ï í æ ï ê å ï ë æ ï é å ï è æ ë å î ð æ ç å î í æ î î å î ê æ î ë å î é æ ç å î è æ é å í í æ í ô ê ô ï ç 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í æ ï ð ô î ð Ú Ñ Î Ó Û Î Å î à í ð æ é å í ï æ î ì Ú Ñ Î Ì Ø Å í à ç æ î í å î ë æ î ì å î é æ î í Ú Ñ Î Ì Ø Ý Ñ Ó × Ò Ù Å ï à ë æ î ð Ú Ñ Î É ß Î Ü Å í à î ï æ ï è å í î æ ï î Ú Ñ Ë Ò Ü Å í à ï î æ ï ð å ï ì æ ï è å ï è æ î ï Ú Ñ Ë Î ó Ó Ñ Ò Ì Ø Å ï à ï î æ î î Ú Ñ Ë Î Ì Ø Å ï ð à ë æ ï ê ô ï è ô î î å ê æ ì ô î ë å é æ ê ô è å ï ð æ ï ð å î ð æ î î å î ì æ î ï ì î Ú Î ß Ò Õ Ô Ç Å ï à î ë æ ç Ú Ë Ò Ý Ì × Ñ Ò Å ï à í ë æ ï é Ú Ë Î Ì Ø Û Î Å î à ï é æ ï ê å î ç æ î ð ó Ù ó Ù Û Ò Û Î ß Ô Å ï ð à ì æ ì å é æ ï ë å ç æ é å ï ð æ ï î å ï ï æ î í å ï ç æ ê ô ï ï ô ï í ô ï ç å í ë æ ï ì Ù Û Ò Û Î ß Ô Ô Ç Å ï à ç æ í Ù Û Ì Ì × Ò Ù Å ï à í ð æ ï ë Ù × Ê Û Ò Å ë à ê æ ï ì å ï ì æ ë å î ð æ î ï å î é æ ï ê Ù Ñ ß Ô Í Å ï à ê æ î í Ù Ñ × Ò Ù Å ï î à í æ ë å ë æ ç å é æ é ô î î å ï é æ ï î å î ë æ î ï å î é æ ï ô ì ô ë ô ê å í ï æ î ì Ù Ñ Ñ Ü Í Å ï à è æ ï ç Ù Ñ Ì Ì Û Ò Å ï à î è æ è Ù Ñ Ê Û Î Ò × Ò Ù Å ï à ì æ é Ù Ñ Ê Û Î Ò Ó Û Ò Ì Å í ì à î æ ë å í æ ï ð å ê æ î ô ë ô ï í å é æ ï ô é å ï ï æ ï ô 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ì æ í × Ó Ð Ô Û Ó Û Ò Ì Û Ü Å ï à ï ð æ è × Ó Ð Ô × Ý ß Ì × Ñ Ò Å î à ï ç æ î í × Ó Ð Ñ Î Ì Å ï à ï î æ î í × Ó Ð Ñ Î Ì ß Ò Ì Å ì à ë æ ç å ï î æ ï í å ï é æ î ì å ï ç æ é × Ó Ð Ñ Î Ì Û Î Å ï à ï ï æ ì × Ó Ð Ñ Î Ì Í Å ï à î ì æ ï ï × Ó Ð Ñ Í Û Ü Å ï à ï í æ î í × Ó Ð Î Ñ Ð Û Î Å ï à í ð æ ì × Ò Ý × Ü Û Ò Ì ß Ô Ô Ç Å ï à í ï æ í × Ò Ý Ô Ë Ü Û Ü Å ï à î î æ ì × Ò Ý Ô Ë Ü × Ò Ù Å í à ì æ ï î å í î æ î í å í ì æ ï × Ò Ý Ñ Ò Í × Í Ì Û Ò Ì Å ë à ë æ è ô ï í å ê æ î í å ï ð æ ï ê å î ð æ í × Ò Ý Ñ Î Î Û Ý Ì Å ï à î ê æ ï î × Ò Ü × Ê × Ü Ë ß Ô Å ì à é æ í å è æ è å ç æ î ë å ï ê æ î × Ò Ü × Ê × Ü Ë ß Ô Í Å ï à í ð æ ë × Ò Ú Ñ Î Ó ß Ì × Ñ Ò Å ï ð à ï é æ î ï å î ê æ ï ð ô ï î ô ï ì å î é æ ë ô è ô ï ð ô ï é å í ë æ î î ô î ì × Ò × Ì × ß Ô Å ê à í æ ì ô ï ê å ê æ î ô ë ô ï ê å ï ï æ î ï × Ò Í Ñ Ú ß Î Å ï à ë æ é × Ò Í Ð Û Ý Ì Å ï à î ï æ ì × Ò Í Ì ß Ò Ý Û Å ï à í ì æ ï × Ò Í Ì ß Ò Ì Å ï à í î æ î ë × Ò Í Ì Û ß Ü Å î à î é æ î ë å î è æ ì ì í × Ò Í Ì Î Ë Ý Ì Û Ü Å î à ï è æ î ì å î ï æ ï ê × Ò Í 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å î è æ ï ç å î ç æ ç å í ì æ î ð Ñ Î Ü Û Î Û Ü Å î à í î æ ï ï ô ï î Ñ Î Ü × Ò ß Î Ç Å ï à ê æ ï ì Ñ Î × Ù × Ò Å ï à ï ì æ ï í Ñ Ì Ø Û Î Å ï ï à î æ î ð å ì æ ï ê å ë æ ê ô ï î å é æ î ë å ç æ ï ç å î î æ ï è ô ï ç å î ì æ ï è ô ï ç å í î æ ï Ñ Ì Ø Û Î É × Í Û Å î à î í æ î ï å í í æ ë Ñ Ë Ì Í × Ü Û Å ì à é æ ï é å ï í æ î ð å ï ì æ ê å ï ë æ ï Ñ Ê Û Î ß Î Ý Ø × Ò Ù Å ï à î è æ ï ê ó Ð ó Ð ß Ò Ò Û Ü Å ï à î ï æ î ì Ð ß Ð Û Î Í Å ï à î ç æ î ë Ð ß Î Ì × Ý Ë Ô ß Î Å ì à ï ð æ ê å ï í æ í å ï ë æ ï í å ï ç æ ï ð Ð ß Î Ì × Ý Ë Ô ß Î Ô Ç Å ï à í í æ î í Ð ß Î Ì × Û Í Å î à ë æ ï ç å î í æ è Ð Û Ò Ü × Ò Ù Å ì à î æ î ô ï ì å î ï æ ï é å í î æ î ì Ð Û Ñ Ð Ô Û Å î à î í æ ì å í ï æ î î Ð Û Î × Ñ Ü Å ï à é æ ï é Ð Û Î Ó × Í Í × Þ Ô Û Å î à ì æ î å è æ î ë Ð Û Î Ó × Ì Å ï à ï ë æ è Ð Û Î Ó × Ì Ì Û Ü Å è à í æ î ì å ë æ î ë å é æ ï å è æ î î å ç æ í å ï ð æ ï ð ô ï ï å î ð æ î Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-2 Filed 08/22/16 Page 11 of 13 ì ë Ð Û Î Í Ñ Ò Å ï à î é æ ë Ð Û Î Í Ñ Ò ß Ô Ô Ç Å î à î ï æ ì å í ð æ î ë Ð Û Î Ì ß × Ò × Ò Ù Å ï à é æ ï ï Ð Û Î Ë Ê × ß Ò Å î à è æ î í å í ì æ î Ð Û Ì Û Î Å î à ï æ î ð å î æ é Ð Ø Ñ Ì Ñ Ù Î ß Ð Ø Å ï à î ï æ é Ð Ø Ñ Ì Ñ Ù Î ß Ð Ø Í Å ï à î ï æ è Ð × Ý Ì Ë Î Û Å ï à í ë æ ê Ð × Û Ý Û Í Å ï à î é æ ç Ð Ô ß Ý Û Å í à ç æ ï ë å ï ì æ î î å î ð æ ï Ð Ô ß Ý Û Ü Å î à ï î æ î î ô î í Ð Ô ß Ý Û Í Å ï à ì æ ï ê Ð Ô ß Ç Û Ü Å ï à î î æ î ì Ð Ñ × Ò Ì Å ï è à í æ î ì å ì æ î í å ï ð æ ê å ï ï æ î î å ï ê æ é å ï ç æ ë ô ç ô î î å î ð æ ï ë ô ï è ô ï ç ô î í å î ï æ ï ì ô ï ê å î è æ ï ï å í ð æ í å í î æ ï é å í ë æ ï î Ð Ñ × Ò Ì Û Ü Å î à í æ ï ë å î ð æ ë Ð Ñ × Ò Ì Í Å ï à î î æ ï ê Ð Ñ Î Ì × Ñ Ò Í Å î à ì æ ï è å í ð æ î ë Ð Ñ Í × Ì × Ñ Ò Å ç à ì æ ï å ê æ í ô ï ì å ï ð æ ê å ï é æ ï ð å î í æ ë å í ï æ é å í î æ ë Ð Ñ Í Í Û Í Í × Ñ Ò Å ï à í ì æ ï é Ð Ñ Í Ì × Ò Ù Å ï à í ï æ ç Ð Ñ Í Ì Ð Ñ Ò Û Å ï à î ï æ î ð Ð Ñ Í Ì Ð Ñ Ò Û Ü Å ï à í î æ î ì Ð Î Û Ý Û Ü Û Ü Å ï à î ð æ ï ç Ð Î Û Ô × Ó × Ò ß Î Ç Å ï à í í æ ï ì Ð Î Û Ó ß Ì Ë Î Û Å í à ï è æ ï å î ð æ ï ë ô î í Ð Î Û Ð Ñ Ò Ü Û Î ß Ò Ý Û Å é à ï ï æ ê ô é å ï ë æ î ô ì ô ï ì å ï è æ ç å ï ç æ ì Ð Î Û Í Û Ò Ì Å î à í ð æ ë å í ï æ ï è Ð Î Û Í Û Ò Ì Í Å ï à ë æ í Ð Î Û Í Ë Ó ß Þ Ô Ç Å î à é æ î ì å î í æ ï ì Ð Î Û Ê × Ñ Ë Í Å ï à ç æ ï í Ð Î × Ó ß Å í à ï ï æ í å í í æ ï ë ô î ë Ð Î × Ò Ý × Ð Ô Û Í Å î à ï ï æ î í å ï ç æ é Ð Î × Ñ Î Å î à ï ê æ ï ê Ð Î × Ê × Ô Û Ù Û Å î à î ë æ ï î ô ï í Ð Î Ñ Þ ß Þ Ô Ç Å í à î ë æ î î å î é æ ê å í ï æ ï ç Ð Î Ñ Þ Ô Û Ó Å í à ï é æ ï ð å î ë æ ï å î ê æ ï Ð Î Ñ Ý Û Û Ü Å ï à î è æ î ë Ð Î Ñ Ý Û Û Ü × Ò Ù Å ì à í æ ê å ì æ ï ë å ë æ î ï å î ï æ ï é Ð Î Ñ Ý Û Û Ü × Ò Ù Í Å è à î æ ï å í æ î ë å ì æ î ô ï é å ë æ ï é å ï è æ î í å í ê æ ë ô ï ï Ð Î Ñ Ý Û Í Í Å ê à ç æ ï ì ô ï ê å ï ï æ î ì å î î æ ï ï ô ï í å í ë æ î ì Ð Î Ñ Ü Ë Ý Û Å ï à î í æ î ï Ð Î Ñ Ü Ë Ý Û Ü Å ì à ï ì æ î ï ô î í å î ì æ ï ì å í í æ ê Ð Î Ñ Ú Û Í Í Û Ü Å ï à î ê æ ì Ð Î Ñ Ñ Ú Å ê à ë æ ï é ô î ì å ê æ í å ï î æ ë ô é å ï ë æ ï í Ð Î Ñ Ð Û Î Å ï à ï ê æ ï é Ð Î Ñ Ð Û Î Ì 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ð ô î ï É ß Ò Ì Í Å ï à î ç æ ë É ß Í Ò ù Ì Å î à ç æ î å ï ê æ ï ë É Û ù Ô Ô Å í à í æ î î å ï ð æ ï ç å î é æ ç É Û ù Î Û Å î ð à ì æ ï ì å é æ î ï å è æ î ð å ï ð æ ï ï å ï ï æ é ô î î å ï í æ ï î ô ï í å ï ê æ é å ï è æ î ô ï ð å î î æ î ð å î ë æ î ð å î é æ î ï å í ï æ î ì å í í æ ï ë å í ì æ ï î å í ë æ ï ô í É Û ù Ê Û Å ç à ï ë æ ï í å ï é æ î ë å î ð æ î ì å î ï æ í å î î æ ï ê å î í æ ê ô î ð ô î í å î ë æ î ì É Û Ô Ý Ñ Ó Û Å ï à î ç æ ï ë É Û Ô Ô ó Î Û Ù ß Î Ü Û Ü Å ï à ï î æ ï é É Û Ô Ô ó Í Û Ì Ì Ô Û Ü Å ï à ç æ ç É Û Ô Í Ø Å í à í ð æ ï ç å í ï æ ì ô ê É Ø ß Ì ù Í Å î à í æ é å ï ç æ î î Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-2 Filed 08/22/16 Page 12 of 13 ì ç É Ø ß Ì Û Ê Û Î Å î à î æ î ì å î é æ ï ë É Ø Û Î Û Å ï ê à í æ ï é å ê æ è å é æ î ì å è æ í ô è å ç æ í å ï ï æ ï î å ï î æ ï ð ô ï î å ï ì æ î î å ï è æ î ï å î í æ î å í ì æ ê ô ï ç å í ë æ í É Ø Û Ì Ø Û Î Å ï î à í æ ï ô ì ô î í å ì æ î î å ê æ î å ï ê æ ï ê ô î î å ï è æ í å ï ç æ ï ç å î ð æ ç å í î æ ë ô é É Ø × Ý Ø Å í ì à î æ ê å í æ ê ô î î å ì æ ê ô ï ë ô ï ç å ë æ í ô ë ô ï ë å ê æ ï í å è æ ï ç å ç æ è å ï ð æ ï ì å ï ï æ î ô è ô ï ç å ï ì æ î ï å ï è æ ï ë å î î æ ï ë å î ì æ ï ç ô î ð ô î ï ô î î å î ê æ ê å î é æ î ð å î è æ ë ô ï ë ô ï ê ô î ð å î ç æ í å í ð æ î í ô î ë å í ï æ ï ë å í ì æ î É Ø Ñ ù Í Å ï à ï í æ ï ê É Ø Ñ Ô Û Å ë à î î æ ï î å î ì æ ï ð å î ë æ ï å í ì æ ï í å í ë æ ë É × Ô Ô × Ò Ù Å ï à ï ê æ í É × Ì Ø × Ò Å é à í æ î î å ï ì æ î ë å î î æ î í å î è æ î î å î ç æ ï ï å í î æ é ô ï ë É × Ì Ø Ñ Ë Ì Å ë à ï ë æ î í å î î æ î ô í å î ì æ ï í å í ì æ î ì É × Ì Ò Û Í Í Å í à î ï æ ï ê ô î ë å î í æ ï ð É × Ì Ò Û Í Í Û Í Å é à î î æ ï ç å î í æ î î å î è æ î ï å í ï æ ï í ô ï ê å í í æ í É Ñ Î Ü Í Å ï à î æ î ð É Ñ Î Õ × Ò Ù Å ï à ï ï æ é É Ñ Î Ì Ø Å ï à î ë æ î í É Ñ Ë Ô Ü Å ë ï à í æ ï ê ô ï é ô ï ç å ê æ ï ì å é æ ì ô î í å è æ ì ô é ô è ô ï ð ô ï ï å ç æ ï ð ô ï ï å ï ð æ é ô ï ç å ï î æ ï í å ï ì æ è ô ï ï å ï ë æ ç ô ï î ô ï ç ô î ì å ï ê æ ï ç å ï é æ ì ô é ô î ð å ï è æ ï ê ô ï è å î ï æ î í å î í æ í ô é ô î ï å î ì æ í å î è æ ï ô ê ô î ë å î ç æ ï í ô î í å í ï æ ë å í î æ ï ô ï ç ô î î ô î í å í í æ ï ô ë ô ç å í ì æ î ï å í ë æ ï í ô ï ê ô î í É Ñ Ë Ô Ü Ò ù Ì Å í à î ê æ ç å í ï æ ì å í ë æ ë É Î × Ì × Ò Ù Å ï à î î æ ï î É Î × Ì Ì Û Ò Å ï à í ð æ ê É Î Ñ Ò Ù Å ï à é æ î ï É Î Ñ Ò Ù Ú Ë Ô Ô Ç Å ï à ï è æ î ð É Î Ñ Ì Û Å ï à í ð æ ï ç ó Ç ó Ç Û ß Î Í Å ì à ï ð æ î ì å ï í æ ç ô î ð å ï ì æ í Ç Ñ Ë ù Ü Å î à ï ê æ î ô î î Ç Ñ Ë ù Î Û Å ë à é æ î ï å ç æ î ì å ï ê æ ì å î ê æ î î å í í æ ï î Ç Ñ Ë ù Ê Û Å í à ê æ ï ê å î ç æ î ì å í ð æ ï é Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-2 Filed 08/22/16 Page 13 of 13 USA VS 3 KNIFED- SHAPED COINS DEPOSITION OF WAYNE SAYLES APRIL 12, 2016 ART MILLER & ASSOCIATES PHONE 410-385-1882 FAX 410-385-1883 www.artmiller.com Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 1 of 61 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Page 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND * * * * * * UNITED STATES OF AMERICA * Plaintiff * Civil No.: vs. * CCB-13-1183 THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS, * TWELVE CHINESE COINS AND * SEVEN CYPRIOT COINS, * Defendants * * * * * * * Deposition of WAYNE SAYLES, was taken on Tuesday, April 12, 2016, commencing at 10:01 a.m., at United States Department of Justice Office of the United States Attorney, 36 South Charles Street, 4th Floor, Baltimore, Maryland, before Michele D. Lambie, a Notary Public. Reported By: Michele D. Lambie Page 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF: 3 United States Department of Justice Office of 4 the United States Attorney. 5 MOLISSA H. FARBER, ESQUIRE. 6 molissa.farber@usdoj.gov. 7 36 South Charles Street. 8 4th Floor. 9 Baltimore, Maryland 21201. 10 (410) 209-4801 11 12 13 U.S. Department of Homeland Security. 14 RANDOLPH N. BLAIR, JR., ESQUIRE. 15 randolph.n.blair@cbp.dhs.gov. 16 40 South Gay Street. 17 Suite 212. 18 Baltimore, Maryland 21202. 19 (410) 962-4471 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 3 1 APPEARANCES (Continued): 2 3 ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANTS: 4 Bailey & Ehrenberg, PLLC. 5 PETER K. TOMPA, ESQUIRE. 6 pkt@becounsel.com. 7 1015 18th Street, N.W. 8 Suite 204. 9 Washington, D.C. 20036. 10 (202) 331-4209 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4 1 EXAMINATION INDEX 2 WAYNE SAYLES 3 BY MS. FARBER 6 4 5 EXHIBIT INDEX 6 MAR WAYNE SAYLES 7 1 Notice of Deposition of Mr. Wayne 50 Sayles 8 2 Document from Ancient Coin Collectors 51 9 Guild Website 10 3 Bylaws for the Ancient Coin Collectors 58 Guild 11 4 Claimant's Responses to Plaintiff's 60 12 First Set of Interrogatories to Claimant 13 5 Bates Numbered Document ACCG 30 67 14 6 Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 99 73 15 through ACCG 103 16 7 Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 94 to 84 ACCG 95 17 8 Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 51 90 18 through 53 19 8 Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 52 91 20 through 53 (remarked) 21 9 Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 62 93 22 through ACCG 63 23 10 Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 04 111 through ACCG 08 24 11 Bates Numbered Documents USA 11 to 116 25 USA 12 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 2 of 61 2 (Pages 5 to 8) Page 5 1 SAYLES EXHIBITS CONTINUED: 2 12 Bates Numbered Document USA 53 119 3 13 Bates Numbered Documents USA 33 to 122 USA 34 4 14 Bates Numbered Documents USA 37 125 5 through USA 43 6 15 Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 44 128 through ACCG 47 7 16 Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 23 to 139 8 ACCG 24 9 17 Bates Numbered Document ACCG 31 147 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 WAYNE SAYLES, 3 the Deponent, called for examination by the 4 Plaintiff, being first duly sworn to tell the 5 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 6 testified as follows: 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MS. FARBER: 9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sayles. 10 A. Good morning. 11 Q. My name is Molissa Farber. I am an 12 Assistant U.S. Attorney representing the United 13 States in this asset forfeiture case. 14 To my right, is Randy Blair. He's an 15 attorney with the U.S. Customs and Border 16 Protection Office. We're working together on this 17 case. 18 So before we begin, I'd like to talk 19 about some of the ground rules of taking a 20 deposition. Have you ever been deposed before? 21 A. No, I haven't. 22 Q. Lucky you. Okay. So there are a couple 23 of kind of basic procedures that we like to cover 24 at the beginning of a deposition. You may have 25 heard these from your attorney already. Page 7 1 The first one is that all of your answers 2 have to be verbal. We have a court reporter here. 3 She's taking down what we say. She can't take down 4 a nod of the head or a shrug of the shoulder, so 5 any answer that you give me needs to be verbalized 6 out loud. Does that make sense? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Great. Also, we can't speak at the same 9 time, because it's impossible to type two people 10 talking simultaneously, so I'd ask that you wait 11 until I finish my question before you respond, even 12 if you know how I'm going to finish it, and I will 13 do my best to wait until you finish your response 14 before I chime in with another question. 15 If I interrupt you, please let me know, 16 and, you know, Peter knows sometimes I get a little 17 eager with the questions. I will definitely do my 18 best to abide by the no-interrupting policy, and 19 I'll ask that you do the same. Does that make 20 sense? 21 A. It does. 22 Q. Great. You took an oath just now before, 23 right at the start of this deposition. That's the 24 same oath that you would give in court. It's an 25 oath to tell the truth, and I'd ask that you give Page 8 1 full and complete answers to my questions that are, 2 of course, truthful. Is that something you can do 3 today? 4 A. To the best of my ability. 5 Q. Great. If you need to take a break, let 6 me know. I will be asking -- we'll probably take 7 breaks at fairly regular intervals, but if you need 8 to take one before I have asked for one, let me 9 know, and I'll find a good stopping point and we'll 10 take a break. 11 I'd just ask that if there's a question 12 that's pending, that you answer that question 13 before we take a break. Does that make sense? 14 A. It does. 15 Q. Great. From time to time, Peter or I 16 might discuss with each other various objections. 17 You might hear Peter say, Objection. I might 18 respond. We might talk to each other. For the 19 most part, that's just stuff that we're getting on 20 the record for legal purposes. It doesn't 21 really -- it doesn't affect you. It doesn't affect 22 your answers. 23 So, for the most part, when Peter 24 objects, he'll get his objection on the record, but 25 you'll still answer the question. If there's a Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 3 of 61 3 (Pages 9 to 12) Page 9 1 situation where you're being instructed not to 2 answer the question, Peter will explicitly tell 3 you; otherwise, you'll go ahead and answer the 4 question after an objection. Does that make sense? 5 A. It does. 6 Q. Great. Now, if I ever ask a question 7 that's unclear, you're not exactly sure what it 8 means or if, you know, for any other reason my 9 question is confusing to you, please tell me. If 10 you answer a question, I'm, it's going to be 11 assumed, and I will assume and everyone will 12 assume, that you've understood the question before 13 you answer it. So if you don't understand, please 14 say so. Does that make sense? 15 A. It does, yes. 16 Q. Okay. 17 MR. TOMPA: May I ask you a question, 18 Molissa, just for clarification? I know Mr. Sayles 19 is here both in his individual capacity and as a 20 30(b)(6). Are you going to do them at the exact 21 same time, or do you intend to ask him questions in 22 his personal capacity first and then do a separate 23 30(b)(6)? 24 MS. FARBER: I was planning to do 25 that -- sorry -- I was planning to do them Page 10 1 simultaneously. 2 MR. TOMPA: That's fine. 3 MS. FARBER: Does that makes sense? 4 MR. TOMPA: That's what I normally do, 5 but I just asked for clarification purposes. 6 MS. FARBER: Yes, I think I'll do them 7 simultaneously. I don't think we'll have too many 8 issues on what is in his fact witness capacity and 9 what's in his 30(b)(6) capacity, but -- 10 MR. TOMPA: I think that's correct. 11 BY MS. FARBER: 12 Q. Now, this may sound like a bit of a 13 personal question, so I apologize for that. Is 14 there any reason why you cannot give accurate, 15 complete, honest testimony today? For example, did 16 you have one too many drinks at dinner last night? 17 Are you on some kind of medication that affects 18 your ability to recall? Are you not feeling well? 19 Is there any circumstance that you can think of 20 that would make your testimony today less than 21 accurate, honest and complete? 22 A. No, there's not. 23 Q. Okay. Great. Well, let's start with a 24 bit of background about you. Tell me a bit about 25 your educational background. Page 11 1 A. I went to high school in a small town in 2 Wisconsin, and right out of high school I went into 3 the military, into the Air Force and, enlisted. I 4 started accumulating college credits along the way, 5 and after a ten-year period, I had accumulated 6 enough college credits to apply and be accepted for 7 the Air Force program to complete my education, my 8 final year of college and to go through a 9 commissioning program. 10 And after graduating from the University 11 of Nebraska at Omaha with a degree in history, I 12 was assigned officer training school, became a 13 second lieutenant, brown bar, and, and then served 14 ten years as an officer. I retired as a captain. 15 And after I retired, I went to, back to 16 school in Wisconsin, at the University of 17 Wisconsin, Madison. I majored in art history, and 18 I completed a Master's Degree in art history. 19 And after that, I started -- I was 20 self-employed. I started a publishing business. 21 You asked about education? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. Okay. I think that, that pretty much 24 covers my education, aside from self-education, you 25 know, which is probably relevant in this particular Page 12 1 case because much of the education that, that 2 anyone in, with an interest in ancient coins will 3 derive will come from self-education. 4 Q. What year did you graduate from college? 5 A. The first time was 1971 where I got my 6 Bachelor's Degree. I graduated in 1986 with an MA. 7 Q. What year did you retire from the armed 8 forces? 9 A. 1982. 10 Q. Is it correct to say that you were 11 pursuing your education while you were also in the 12 military? 13 A. That is. 14 Q. Tell me a bit about your self-education 15 as far as it relates to ancient coins. 16 A. Well, ancient coins were not something 17 that I knew anything about early in my life, and 18 the first time I saw one I became interested in 19 what it was and started looking for information, 20 books. 21 I didn't find many books written at that 22 time, but over a number of years, I found more and 23 more books about the subject. I ran into more and 24 more people who were collectors or dealers in 25 ancient coins, and through each of them I learned Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 4 of 61 4 (Pages 13 to 16) Page 13 1 something. 2 And after I graduated -- after I got out 3 of the military, I decided to, because I had GI 4 Bill rights left and I wanted to use those, I 5 decided to continue my education. And I chose to 6 go to the University of Wisconsin in art history 7 because it was a place where I could learn about 8 ancient coins. 9 And ancient coins is works of art, and 10 that's essentially what my MA was, was in, art 11 history with that specialization. And I think I 12 was the first, and maybe the only, person at the 13 University of Wisconsin to ever get a degree like 14 that. 15 I was just very fortunate that my 16 professor, who took me underwing, was a member of 17 the Ancient Numismatic Society and, the American 18 Numismatic Society, I'm sorry. For us that 19 collects ancient coins, I might as well call it the 20 Ancient Numismatic Society. 21 So he, he helped me to learn about coins, 22 to learn about art and also to learn about places 23 like the ANS. 24 Q. The A? 25 A. The American Numismatic Society, because Page 14 1 without him, I would have never been exposed to the 2 American Numismatic Society, and that is probably 3 the preeminent society in the United States, at 4 least, for people who are interested in ancient 5 coins. 6 Then I guess another part of my 7 education, of course, was going to the American 8 Numismatic Society, studying there with their 9 archives. I eventually became a life fellow of the 10 ANS, and I've been a member since. 11 Q. You said that in your Master's program 12 you had a specialization? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Was that a specialization in ancient 15 coins? 16 A. It was. 17 Q. Did you write a thesis -- 18 A. I did. 19 Q. -- in that Master's program? What was 20 your thesis? 21 A. The influence of ancient coins in the 22 work of Peter Paul Rubens. 23 Q. Did part of your Master's program involve 24 identifying ancient coins? 25 A. Not so much identifying, but looking at Page 15 1 the sources, at the information, the iconographic 2 analysis of what's on a coin, and when you, when 3 you look at practically any coin from the western 4 world, you find imagery on one side and usually 5 epigraphy on the other side. 6 And the study of the iconography of the 7 coin was what I specialized in, and in that 8 process, I learned that collectors had, had been 9 around since the days of the Renaissance. I think 10 the late 1300s is the first record we have of, of a 11 coin dealer going from Italy to Greece buying 12 coins, bringing them back, selling them in Italy, 13 so that tradition goes back a long way. 14 And I was studying that tradition in 15 college, and I had two professors actually working 16 with me together as co-directors of my program. 17 One was a specialist in ancient art, and the other 18 one was a specialist in museology, in collecting. 19 So it was a -- it was symbiotic and a 20 natural fit, so I did learn a lot about ancient 21 coins and about the collecting world at that point. 22 Well, and I could take the rest of the day on that 23 story, but you can -- whenever I've said what you 24 think you need to know, let me know. 25 Q. Okay. Well, I don't want to cut you off. Page 16 1 If I, if I have additional questions after you're 2 finished, I'll certainly ask you some follow-ups, 3 but I do find this very interesting. Most of my 4 cases are medical malpractice, so this is one of 5 the most -- it's very different. 6 A. Sure. It's a 50-year career, and so I 7 can tell you, you know, a lot of my own personal 8 experiences and how I perceive things and what led 9 me to where I am. 10 Q. You mentioned the American Numismatic 11 Society, and I think that you said that you studied 12 with their archives, correct? 13 A. Yes, many times. 14 Q. What did you study in their archives? 15 A. Coins from, usually from a particular 16 place, and, for example, one place, a city that I 17 became interested in just because I had happened to 18 have been there at the ruins of the city, it's a 19 city in eastern Turkey. Anazarbus is the name of 20 the place, and because I became interested in coins 21 of Anazarbus, I went to the ANS and I studied their 22 collection of coins from Anazarbus, and I continued 23 to gather information from a variety of sources and 24 am in the process of writing a book about those 25 coins. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 5 of 61 5 (Pages 17 to 20) Page 17 1 Q. Did you study coins from China at any 2 point? 3 A. No, I did not. 4 Q. Did you study coins from Cypress at any 5 point? 6 A. Incidentally. 7 Q. What do you mean incidentally? 8 A. Well, Cypriot coins come up in the 9 context of ancient coins from the western world 10 pretty often because they are circulated throughout 11 the whole western world. 12 If you are, you know, in a coin shop in 13 Germany, you know, you're quite likely to find 14 coins from Cypress. The same thing in England or 15 France or Italy, for that matter. There are coin 16 shops in Italy, too, and you can go into a coin 17 shop in Italy and find coins from Cypress, and so, 18 incidentally, you do come across them. 19 To say that I had a specific interest in 20 studying coins from Cypress would probably be 21 inaccurate, because I knew about them. I had 22 studied them in my education background, you know, 23 at the University, and but I did not really have a 24 penchant for them personally, so -- 25 Q. So it's fair to say that you studied Page 18 1 Cypriot coins a bit in university? 2 A. Somewhat, because I was studying 3 iconography of all Greek coins and Roman coins as 4 well, which Roman coins's iconography pretty much 5 mirrors that of the Greek world, and so the Romans 6 were good at a lot of things, but they were not 7 very creative when it came to images. And the 8 images that they have on their statutory or their 9 coins are almost always derived from the Greek 10 world. 11 Q. And you have some familiarity with 12 Cypriot coins through your experiences buying and 13 selling coins; would that be fair to say? 14 A. Well, some is probably even a stretch 15 because I -- in, in the years that I was actively 16 buying and selling coins, which is not the whole 50 17 years I consider myself as a professional 18 numismatist, but during part of that time, I rarely 19 sold a coin from Cyprus. Not -- I'm not sure 20 exactly why, but I just didn't, I didn't seek them 21 out, and they didn't naturally come to me. But 22 they were being sold. 23 There were dealers around. They were 24 always offering them, and I saw them in catalogs. 25 And so as I browse through a coin catalog, and I Page 19 1 have thousands of coin catalogs because everybody 2 in the business sent them to me. When you're a 3 publisher, you know, everybody wants that -- 4 they're hoping that you will write about their 5 sale, so they send you a catalog. 6 Well, I got free catalogs from everybody 7 in the coin business for years, and so I saw a lot 8 of coins, saw pictures of a lot of coins, that is, 9 and I saw a lot of Cypriot coins in these catalogs 10 over the last 40, 30, 40 years, I lose track, but, 11 yes, I saw a lot of them. 12 I did always pay attention because 13 sometimes the imagery on a Cypriot coin is similar 14 to the imagery on other coins that I was studying 15 or interested in, and I just mentioned Anazarbus. 16 Well, another city near Anazarbus that I 17 am interested in, and writing about, is a city 18 called Milas. And the coins from Milas mirror the 19 coins from Cyprus very closely, so closely that 20 there has to be a tie. 21 So I was interested in the Cyprus, in 22 Cyprus from the aspect that they're similar to 23 Milas, but that's, I would say that's incidental. 24 Q. Okay. Do you have any kind of training 25 in the identification of forged or counterfeit Page 20 1 coins? 2 A. Well, training is pretty much 3 non-existent in that particular subject area. I 4 think the people that, that do proclaim excellence 5 or expertise in that area are self-taught. 6 Q. Would you say that you have any 7 expertise -- 8 A. I would. 9 Q. -- in that area? 10 A. I wrote -- I actually wrote a book on the 11 subject. 12 Q. What was the name of the book? 13 A. Classical Deception. 14 Q. And that was counterfeits, forgeries and 15 reproductions -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- of ancient coins? 18 A. That's correct. And mostly that book is 19 a, a summary of the history of forgery. It isn't a 20 book about how to detect forgeries. That's 21 something that I wouldn't choose to write about 22 because I think that's too subjective, but the 23 history of forgery is interesting in itself, and it 24 tells us a lot about the things you should be aware 25 of, because it tells us how forgers made forgeries, Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 6 of 61 6 (Pages 21 to 24) Page 21 1 and so you know something about the technique. 2 And if you know stylistically as an art 3 historian does, you know, studies style, you can 4 see when style is not right for a particular coin, 5 and so between, between a style, studying the style 6 and the fabric of a coin, how it was made, the 7 technique of production, you can, I could go into a 8 lot of detail about that, but, but, yes, that's, 9 that's how you develop your expertise is just from 10 time, experience and bringing your information, 11 your background together on that subject, that 12 little pinpoint of subject of material. 13 Q. Would you say that you have some amount 14 of experience in identifying forged or counterfeit 15 coins in your practice? 16 A. Well, I, I would say that there are some 17 coins I can tell you at a glimpse that these are 18 forgeries. Those are the kinds of coins that you 19 find in a flea market, you know, in foreign 20 countries and sold to tourists and that sort of 21 thing, and they're easy to detect. 22 There are other coins that I can tell you 23 that are forgeries because I know that forgeries of 24 that type were made and I know the difference 25 between A and B. Page 22 1 There are other coins that I could say, I 2 wouldn't buy this coin. I can't say to you with 3 any authority, This coin is a forgery, but I 4 wouldn't buy it. So see, there's different levels 5 of that, and so I, there's not a simple yes or no 6 answer to that. 7 Q. That makes sense. In your either 8 educational experience or in the time since, have 9 you published any papers about ancient coins? 10 A. Oh, God, yes. 11 Q. About how many would you say? 12 A. Oh, a couple hundred or more. More, more 13 than a couple hundred. 14 Q. Wow. Have you published any papers about 15 the litigation that is happening now, either the 16 asset forfeiture proceeding or the Ancient Coin 17 Collectors Guild versus U.S. Customs and Border 18 Protection case? 19 A. Surely, I did. Not papers in the sense 20 of an academic paper, although I did, I did publish 21 one for a conference in New Castle, England. That 22 was a conference of -- it was hosted by the Council 23 for British Archeology, and I was invited to go to 24 New Castle, and I gave a paper there, which was -- 25 the paper itself was over 50 pages, but the Page 23 1 presentation wasn't quite that long. 2 But, anyway, it was, it was about ancient 3 coin collecting, in general, and the problems that 4 ancient coin collectors face in, in the area of 5 Customs and, and control of cultural property, and 6 so, yes, I guess. 7 I had not thought about that, you know, 8 as we were looking at these issues earlier. I had 9 forgotten -- I didn't forget I went there. I just 10 had not related the two, but it does relate, and so 11 it's a good question. 12 Q. Did you have any PowerPoint 13 presentation -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- or additional materials? 16 A. I had PowerPoints along the way that I 17 delivered. I went to conventions, coin conventions 18 in New York City and Chicago and other places 19 around the Country where the American Numismatic 20 Association held their summer conventions, and at 21 those conventions for a period of about ten years 22 or so, I had membership meetings of the ACCG. 23 At those membership meetings, I also had 24 some form of PowerPoint, and on the PowerPoints, I 25 would have some reference to an ongoing case, but Page 24 1 usually it was just a reference to the extent of 2 we've got, we're at this point in, in the process, 3 and we're at this point in the process. There 4 wasn't any detail in those about the, the essence 5 of the case itself. 6 Q. Did you have a PowerPoint presentation 7 that you brought with you to the New Castle 8 conference? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. And did that PowerPoint presentation 11 reference the, either the, I guess, Customs issues 12 that collectors face or this litigation in any of 13 its forms? 14 A. I don't recall that it did. I doubt it 15 did, because that conference, that Council 16 gathering in New Castle was in 2010, and this case 17 didn't really develop until later in 2009 and was 18 just -- it was just -- and it wasn't even the same 19 case. It was -- you know, it was two different 20 court cases, so I guess the answer has to be no, 21 actually, because in 2010, this case was not in 22 play. 23 Q. But it did mention cultural property 24 issues? 25 A. My presentation did, but, but not about Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 7 of 61 7 (Pages 25 to 28) Page 25 1 this particular case, no. 2 Q. In your PowerPoint presentation, did that 3 mention cultural property issues or Customs 4 regulations? 5 A. Yes, and that, that is online. 6 Q. Okay. Great. 7 A. That -- the Council for British 8 Archeology published the entirety of the papers, so 9 you can pull it up and look at it, if you'd like. 10 Q. Great. Do you have any other articles or 11 papers that you wrote about cultural property? 12 A. I'm not sure how to limit that question. 13 Q. Okay. Let's limit it to cultural 14 property issues surrounding the importation of 15 ancient coins. Does that help limit it at all? 16 A. Well, I've written a lot of papers, you 17 see, and some of them will touch on that area, and 18 blogs online. I have an online blog, and I have 19 blogged on occasion on that. 20 I haven't blogged much lately, but during 21 this whole period I have, and, but I don't recall 22 having blogged about any detail; more so about 23 philosophy. 24 Q. What do you mean philosophy? 25 A. Well, the whole question of, of why we Page 26 1 would bring a suit in Federal Court. I mean, most 2 people will say, What are you suing the Government 3 for? And they don't understand that, that there's 4 an issue here, and the issue is a matter of 5 philosophy and interpretation. 6 We have a law, and the law has specific 7 guidelines. And we read the law, and in plain 8 English, it says to us one thing, and we're being 9 told by those who enforce that law that it means 10 something else. 11 When we go back into the history of the 12 law, it goes back to 1983, and we look at all of 13 the testimony before Congress, what we see is that 14 the interpretation we've taken is actually the same 15 interpretation that was generated in 1983 in 16 Congress, and that interpretation is not being, in 17 our view is not being administered today. It's 18 being administered with a different interpretation, 19 and yet, there's been nothing in-between that 20 should change the interpretation. 21 There have been no amendments, and 22 there's been no, no philosophical change that would 23 change law. So we -- and if, if you looked at the 24 minutes from the Cultural property Advisory 25 Committee meetings, I've been to nine of them, I Page 27 1 think, or ten, and I have said repeatedly that, We 2 do not oppose the Memorandums of Understanding. We 3 do not oppose the law. We support the law. We 4 just are -- what we're trying to do is get 5 enforcement of the law as it's written, and so 6 that's philosophical in this case. 7 Now, when you get down -- it's 8 philosophical from my point of view as I'm 9 blogging, but -- that's to answer your question. 10 But when we get to this table, it's no longer 11 philosophical. Now it's a question of law. 12 And what we want is for the law to be 13 administered the way it's written, and if a judge 14 says that that's the way it's written, then it's up 15 to us to either accept it or appeal. 16 Q. Do you have a CV that lists your 17 publications or presentations or anything like 18 that? 19 A. Briefly on, in LinkedIn. 20 Q. On LinkedIn? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. But I have -- I don't have a -- since I'm 24 not an academic and I'm not applying for jobs, I 25 don't really have a CV. Page 28 1 Q. Okay. I did, I did find your blog on the 2 Internet. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. It looks like most of it is gone? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What happened? 7 A. Well, what happened was that there's an 8 archaeologist who has a different view than we do, 9 and he can get a little difficult to deal with. 10 And rather than deal with him, I decided that I 11 would just ignore that whole mess, and, and so I 12 pulled down everything that, that he was likely to 13 be blog, reblogging and blogging about. 14 Q. So those would be posts about cultural 15 property issue? 16 A. Cultural property issues probably, but 17 that -- we could -- when we get into that subject 18 area, it's all a matter of personality and 19 interpretation. There's very little substance 20 there. 21 Q. And the Internet really brings out the 22 worst in people sometimes? 23 A. It does. It sure does. That's one 24 reason I stopped doing it. 25 Q. That makes sense. Do you know the name Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 8 of 61 8 (Pages 29 to 32) Page 29 1 of the archaeologist -- I'm assuming it's -- 2 A. Paul Barford. 3 Q. What was it? 4 A. Paul Barford. 5 Q. Paul Barford? 6 A. (Nodding head, Yes.) 7 Q. Is it correct to say that this 8 archaeologist was leaving comments on your blog 9 posts? 10 A. That is very fair to say, yes. Shall I 11 elaborate? 12 Q. Sure. 13 A. Okay. My wife has a business. She sells 14 collectibles and memorabilia and things like that 15 related to angels. It's called the House of 16 Angels, and this place is just full of angels from 17 one end to the other. And she, she is involved in 18 the ACCG as, as a board member because she 19 basically takes care of all of the financials and 20 that sort of thing, like a secretary/treasurer. 21 Paul Barford, just because she's a member 22 of the ACCG, he decided that it was appropriate to 23 attack her, and he really went to town on her on 24 his blog, and I responded appropriately, and so 25 that -- I'd say it's been a very adversarial Page 30 1 exchange for very good reasons. 2 Q. That makes sense to me. Okay. Have 3 you -- besides for the lecture that you mentioned 4 at the New Castle conference -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- have you given any other lectures 7 about either this asset forfeiture proceeding or 8 the previous iteration of this case that was the 9 Ancient Coin Collectors Guild versus U.S. Customs? 10 A. I'm thinking about that. I can't think 11 of any, any that I did. 12 Now, if you have one that you would like 13 to remind me of, I can tell you about it, but I 14 don't remember any. 15 Q. Okay. Do you have a side business 16 selling ancient coins? 17 A. I do sell ancient coins; yes. I guess 18 you could call it a side business because it's not 19 really what you -- I don't make a living doing it. 20 Q. Okay. Yeah. If that's an incorrect 21 characterization, let me know. Would you call it a 22 side business, or would you call it -- 23 A. I'll say I'm a professional numismatist, 24 and I earn income from numismatics, but my -- the 25 majority of my income from numismatics is, by and Page 31 1 large, greatly in large is by selling books. I 2 have written 13 books about ancient coins, and the 3 books are pretty good sellers. 4 Q. Do you have an income associated with 5 your role at the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild? 6 A. No. 7 Q. That's a volunteer position? 8 A. Entirely. 9 Q. Do you know that there is a Wikipedia 10 page for you? 11 A. I have seen that, yes. I don't know who 12 put that up. 13 Q. That was my question. 14 A. I have no idea. 15 Q. You didn't do it? 16 A. No, I didn't do it. I don't know who did 17 it. I was surprised to see it. 18 Q. There's also a Wikipedia page for the 19 Ancient Coin Collectors Guild. Did the Guild have 20 anything to do with that? 21 A. No. I don't -- I, I would venture to 22 say -- well, that's speculation, but it wouldn't 23 surprise me if the person that put my name up also 24 put the ACCG page up. 25 Q. But you don't know who it was? Page 32 1 A. No, I don't know who it was. 2 Q. Tell me a bit about what -- strike that. 3 What is the Ancient Coin Collectors 4 Guild? 5 A. Well, it's an advocacy group. It's a 6 501(c)(4) corporation, a Missouri corporation, and 7 its purpose, really, is to protect the interests of 8 ancient coin collectors, and as well as protect the 9 interest, also to enhance the hobby, to educate, to 10 do everything that an advocacy group should do for 11 its members. 12 Q. Did you found the Ancient Coin Collectors 13 Guild? 14 A. I did. 15 Q. What prompted you to found the 16 organization? 17 A. Well, I had been publishing a magazine 18 called the Celator, which I founded in 1987, and 19 there was discussion in the Celator in the early 20 years, 2000, you know, 2000 up to 2004. 2004 is 21 when we founded the ACCG. There was discussion in 22 the Celator on occasion about cultural property 23 issues. 24 There was one article written by an 25 archaeologist in Canada, for example, and -- Martin Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 9 of 61 9 (Pages 33 to 36) Page 33 1 Beckman was his name, and, and there were a couple 2 of other articles. I don't remember if Peter wrote 3 one at that time. I think he did write an article 4 maybe prior to 2004, but anyway, it was becoming 5 obvious to collectors for the first time ever that 6 there was an interest in restricting the 7 importation of ancient coins into the United 8 States. That was new ground to collectors. 9 We didn't -- we never experienced 10 anything like that. We didn't understand that, and 11 at the time we founded the ACCG, we basically 12 founded it to, to have a voice in the proceedings 13 that were possibly going to affect ancient coin 14 collectors. It turns out that we were precocious, 15 and it did affect us. 16 Q. Precocious? 17 A. Not the right word? 18 Q. Precognizant? 19 A. Precognizant. 20 Q. What word are you trying to say? 21 A. I would say we, we, we were -- we knew in 22 advance, you know, the future. It was, it was like 23 Nostradamus almost telling the future. We saw the, 24 we saw the problem turn out to be bigger than we 25 had realized, but we saw the problem in advance, Page 34 1 and that's why we founded the organization. 2 Q. What do you mean it turned out to be 3 bigger than you realized? 4 A. By precocious, I guess I was thinking we 5 were a young organization, and we were seeing the 6 beginning of that issue, but maybe it's still not 7 the right word. 8 Q. Yes, I think maybe prescient or 9 precognizant. 10 A. Probably. 11 Q. I understand what you're saying. You saw 12 it coming? 13 A. Yes. And if I were writing, I would sit 14 down at this point on this word and I would Google 15 it and look at the synonyms. 16 Q. Got to love the tutorials. 17 A. So I can't, I can't do that right here. 18 Q. No problem at all. I understand what 19 you're saying. When you said that the issue turned 20 out to be bigger than you imagined, what issue did 21 you mean? 22 A. I mean the, that the market for ancient 23 coins would be affected by, by the interpretations 24 of the UNESCO Treaty of 1987. 25 Q. That's, in some sense, the subject of the Page 35 1 case that -- 2 A. Exactly. 3 Q. -- the Guild brought against Customs in 4 2010? 5 A. Exactly. 6 Q. What have been your positions with the 7 Ancient Coin Collectors Guild? And if I refer to 8 the Guild as the Guild, will you understand that 9 I'm referring to the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild 10 when I say the Guild? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What have been your positions with the 13 Guild? 14 A. After founding? 15 Q. After founding. 16 A. I've been the executive director. 17 Q. And that's the only position that you've 18 held? 19 A. Yes, that's the only position. 20 Q. What are the responsibilities of the 21 executive director? 22 A. Manage the day-to-day business and keep 23 the, the will of the board at hand and, and do 24 things like this. 25 Q. Being deposed? Page 36 1 A. Yes. Going to Washington and 2 representing ancient coin collectors at cultural 3 property hearings, writing to representatives 4 asking for their help on issues of legislation, 5 dealing with Customs on issues where there's some 6 question about whether there's a law involved. 7 I've had Customs agents call me and ask 8 me, you know, whether this is or that is not 9 something that's restricted, and I refer them to 10 the, to the proper law, and it helps us both, and 11 so it's, it's a process of coordination basically. 12 It's not Grand Central Station by any means, but, 13 but that's what we do. 14 Q. As part of your position, do you also 15 speak on behalf of the Guild in public settings? 16 A. Well, the public settings, yes, because 17 the public settings are often coin shows, and, and 18 like I said, for, for a number of years there, I 19 attended those pretty regularly. I haven't 20 recently, but that's -- I don't know how long this 21 particular case has been before us. Is it more 22 than three years now? 23 Q. Since 2009, I believe. 24 MR. TOMPA: I think you have to be 25 specific about this case. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 10 of 61 10 (Pages 37 to 40) Page 37 1 BY MS. FARBER: 2 Q. So the coins were seized in April -- the 3 coins were detained in April of 2009. The 4 case -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild 7 versus Customs was brought in 2010. 8 A. Yes. Then I have probably on a couple of 9 occasions done that, but I haven't been -- I have 10 not been to a major coin show. I haven't been to a 11 coin show in three years. 12 Q. And what do you do for the Guild at coin 13 shows? 14 A. Well, just basically hold membership 15 meetings, and I talk to members, contributors, 16 people who have helped us along the way. You know, 17 I just basically meet people, show the flag, and we 18 don't really get into -- I shouldn't -- I'll let 19 you ask the questions. Go ahead. 20 Q. The flag, Ancient Coin Collectors Guild 21 has its own flag? 22 A. Well, no. That was a, that was a 23 rhetorical term. 24 Q. Oh. 25 A. Show the flag is sort of, comes from my Page 38 1 military background. You know, when you -- when 2 Generals drive down the street in the car, they 3 always have a flag in the front with stars on it. 4 Whether it's the one star, two stars, three stars, 5 they're basically showing the flag, and so what 6 you're doing is presenting the face of your 7 organization to the people that support you. 8 Q. Has the mission or purpose of the Ancient 9 Coin Collectors Guild changed at all over the 10 years? 11 A. The mission hasn't changed at all. I 12 think we've been a little overcome by events. 13 When we initially imported these coins, 14 we were all pretty much of the opinion that this is 15 something that might take three or four months, and 16 that turned out not to be the case. And so here we 17 are seven years later, you know, still kind of 18 trying to get through the first hurdle, and so in 19 the process, our focus has -- obviously our focus 20 is on this court case at the moment. 21 When, when this court case is resolved, 22 then we will get back to the other businesses at 23 hand and be more aggressive in doing other things 24 that help collectors. 25 Q. You said that this case is the first Page 39 1 hurdle. What are the other hurdles? 2 MR. TOMPA: No. I think you 3 misunderstood what he said. 4 MS. FARBER: Okay. I'm sorry. 5 BY MS. FARBER: 6 Q. I heard you say first hurdle. What did 7 you mean by that? 8 A. Could I, could I get a repeat? Can I 9 hear that back? 10 MS. FARBER: Can you do that? 11 (Whereupon, the record was read as 12 requested.) 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yeah, I guess in that 14 particular -- thank you for reading the rest of it 15 because I guess I would have been sidetracked 16 again. 17 We -- it's my feeling that we have never 18 really had a case in court because -- I'm not a 19 lawyer, so I can't use, you know, the proper terms 20 here, but we've never really had our story told or 21 heard because the cases have been dismissed and, 22 and for reasons that are not related to a 23 conclusion is the way I look at it at least, and so 24 the hurdle is getting our voice heard in court. 25 I mean, to have an actual court case and Page 40 1 the judge says, This is what happened. This is 2 what, what I rule are the circumstances of the law. 3 Our position has been, and still is, that there's a 4 law. The law has specific parameters. The 5 parameters in our case have been met, but there's a 6 question in Customs about whether they're met or 7 not, okay. 8 Well, then if, if this is American 9 justice as I know it, then the Government should 10 show us where we haven't met the parameters, but 11 the parameters that we have been shown are not the 12 parameters that are stated in the law. So, 13 therefore, we have a hurdle, and getting past the 14 first hurdle is when the judge agrees or disagrees, 15 and we haven't had that because if you followed the 16 case from the beginning, which you have obviously, 17 you know that we have never had a judgment against 18 us. What we've had is dismissals. 19 BY MS. FARBER: 20 Q. Okay. And you don't see the 21 dismissals -- 22 A. No. 23 Q. -- as a judgment against you? 24 A. No, I don't. 25 MR. TOMPA: I'll just put a general Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 11 of 61 11 (Pages 41 to 44) Page 41 1 objection here to the extent he's not a lawyer. I 2 mean, he has a layman's understanding of this, so 3 it may not be legally correct as a lawyer would 4 look at it, but it's certainly a legitimate, you 5 know, view. 6 MS. FARBER: Understood. 7 THE WITNESS: But in explaining to you 8 what I consider, consider a hurdle and why I used 9 that term, that's the basis. 10 BY MS. FARBER: 11 Q. And when I ask you these questions, I 12 understand that you're not a lawyer. I'm asking 13 for your, I guess your understanding of the issues 14 or your feelings about them. 15 A. Sure. 16 Q. So when you say -- when you were talking 17 about the first hurdle and wanting to have your 18 story told I think was -- 19 A. Yes, that's the term I used. 20 Q. -- the words you used, do you mean in a 21 trial or something short of a trial? How do 22 you -- how would you feel as though my -- 23 A. When I think as a layman when I think of 24 court, I think of a trial. I mean, basically, 25 everything in court is being -- issues are brought Page 42 1 before a court, and the court has a judge, and the 2 judge makes a judgment, and so that's pretty 3 clear-cut, except that I haven't seen that. 4 What I have seen is something else 5 happening, and instead of getting from here to here 6 (indicating) -- I'm sorry, I can't talk with my 7 hands. 8 Q. That's okay. 9 A. Instead of getting from point A to point 10 B, we're going from point A to point C, and point C 11 to point D and point D to point A, and so there, 12 that's a hurdle to me. 13 Q. So is there anything, short of a trial, 14 that would make you feel or make the Guild feel as 15 though your story has been told? 16 A. Well, there is, but I don't know that 17 it's anything within this parameter. I mean, if 18 there were an affirmation that the law as written 19 will be applied as written, and that means that 20 there's legitimate judgment of that, not a 21 bureaucratic interpretation or an administrative 22 branch directive, but a legitimate judgment of 23 that, independent judgment of that, I think then, 24 yes, it would be because that was our purpose. 25 Q. Your purpose? Page 43 1 A. Is to, is to make that judgment clear. 2 Q. Your purpose in instituting this, in 3 importing these coins -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- was to bring forth some kind of 6 judgment? 7 A. It was to challenge the judgment that was 8 made not in the law. It's not the law itself that 9 we're challenging. It's the administrative process 10 by which that law is applied. 11 Q. And the -- have you read any of the court 12 decisions? 13 A. Yes, I've read them all. Now, how much 14 of that I can relate to you and understand, I 15 wouldn't hesitate, I wouldn't venture to guess, 16 but, yes, I have read them all. Peter shares every 17 word with me, but then some of it, you know, is 18 legalese to me. 19 Q. Right. Some of it is legalese literally 20 to everybody, right? 21 A. (Nodding head, Yes.) 22 Q. So the opinion that Judge Blake issued in 23 the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild versus U.S. 24 Customs case, which I think was back in 2011, you 25 don't see that as a sort of legitimate judgment on Page 44 1 the merits of the case? 2 A. Well, when you say you don't see that, 3 now, you're asking me -- I can't tell you that I am 4 arguing that it's not because I don't have the 5 legal background to do that, but as I perceive it, 6 that is not a judgment. 7 That was -- I'm not sure what, what term 8 you would use, but that -- but after a judgment, 9 there's certain layers of explanation, and in those 10 layers, I would think, you know, that that's, 11 that's how I saw that, is it's sort of an 12 explanation, but I didn't see that -- you know, 13 this is a judgment case which is closed, and we 14 did, of course, appeal that. 15 Q. Did you read the 4th Circuit -- 16 A. I did. 17 Q. -- opinion? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. Did that not strike you as a kind of 20 judgment in the sense of what you were looking for? 21 A. Well, I know it because I think it did 22 not address the questions, and it did not really 23 affirm -- well, I shouldn't say that because, 24 again, I'm out of, out of my scope here. 25 But, no, it did not, and, and that's why Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 12 of 61 12 (Pages 45 to 48) Page 45 1 we appealed it to the Supreme Court, and we didn't 2 appeal, but, you know, we petitioned the Supreme 3 Court to hear the case. And, and then the thing 4 that strikes me is that, from that experience is 5 that the appellate court then stated that this 6 issue should be and could be and would be resolved 7 by returning for the forfeiture hearing, and then 8 that went from appellate court back here to 9 Baltimore. 10 We still -- I still feel that the 11 questions that we had in the beginning that we 12 thought would only take three months to hear, those 13 questions have never really been answered, and, no, 14 I do not see or feel that what you're referencing 15 there with Judge Blake's comment about -- I forget, 16 I forget the exact wording of it, but I know 17 exactly what you're talking about, and I don't 18 think that that was a judgment against us. 19 In fact, I think that in that same, in 20 that same -- what's the word you use for that? 21 Q. Opinion. 22 A. Opinion. In that same opinion, there 23 were references to things that supported our view, 24 and yet, that didn't change the law. 25 So if it was a judgment, you know, where Page 46 1 is the, where is the balance there? Where is the 2 scale? I just didn't think of it that way as a 3 judgment. I thought of it as a dismissal because 4 the way I understood that, Judge Blake felt that 5 this was not judicable. I think that's the word, 6 justiceable, whichever the word is she used. 7 She said it was not and, therefore, it 8 could not, it could not pass judgment. If you 9 can't pass judgment, you can't have a conclusion, 10 and so, therefore, the case was dismissed, but it 11 wasn't judged against us, and it was then appealed 12 because the case hadn't been completed. 13 You know, our point was still there and 14 our material was still being held, and at that 15 point, you know, there was some discussion I think 16 about the, the coins being returned. And when, 17 when it was obvious that we were going to appeal, 18 the coins were then decided to be held by Customs, 19 and that was a joint decision, I believe, between 20 Customs, if I'm not mistaken. 21 Q. Between Customs and the Guild? 22 A. And the Guild, yes. 23 Q. You mentioned that you felt that the 24 questions that we had at the beginning weren't 25 resolved or decided. What questions did you mean? Page 47 1 A. The questions about what coins are legal 2 to restrict. 3 Q. So the Guild would agree that now we're 4 in an asset forfeiture proceeding, right? 5 A. Well, sure. 6 Q. Does the Guild agree that as part of that 7 asset forfeiture proceeding the Guild may no longer 8 challenge the validity of the underlying Customs 9 regulations at issue? 10 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to object because I 11 think you're asking for a, sort of a legal. He's 12 not a lawyer. You know, he may -- he can answer to 13 the extent he can, but he's not a lawyer, and he 14 may not totally understand your question or 15 understand the legal significance of it. 16 BY MS. FARBER: 17 Q. You can answer. What's your 18 understanding -- 19 A. Would you read the question again? 20 Q. Sure. I'll rephrase it slightly -- no. 21 Well, I'll ask it the way it was. Does the Guild 22 agree that it has been instructed not to challenge 23 the validity of the import restrictions in this 24 proceeding? 25 A. First of all, the word instructed bothers Page 48 1 me. 2 Q. I'll rephrase. 3 A. We weren't instructed, I don't think, by 4 that ruling of the Court or that, that opinion of 5 the Court, because there was no -- it was 6 dismissed. It wasn't -- there was nothing. 7 Q. I'll rephrase. Does the Guild agree that 8 the validity of the underlying Customs regulations 9 at issue or the underlying Customs regulations are, 10 that validity is not at issue any more? 11 A. No. I mean -- well, when I say no, we do 12 not agree, because we're being told that our 13 property is being seized according to a law. 14 When you look at the law, the basis for 15 the seizure has not been demonstrated, and the 16 argument in the opinion, if that's an 17 argument -- the Court doesn't make arguments, so if 18 that, if that is -- if that were a judgment, then I 19 would guess we would have to agree, but then we 20 would challenge the judgment, I would assume, 21 through the appeal process. 22 But that hasn't happened, and we are in 23 the same position we were seven years ago on day 24 one when we thought this was a clear-cut case, but 25 we're asking the same questions. So does that Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 13 of 61 13 (Pages 49 to 52) Page 49 1 answer your question? 2 Q. Yes. Thank you. Would you -- going back 3 to the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild, before we 4 dive in more to kind of the meat of the asset 5 forfeiture -- 6 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to just object, I 7 mean, just generally in terms of time, because I 8 know you've spent quite a bit of time limiting this 9 case to the forfeiture action, and if you look at 10 all of your, I think all of your topics for the 11 deposition today, I don't see anything about the or 12 I don't recall anything about the actual earlier 13 case. Yeah, I just don't see anything in here, so 14 you're kind outside the scope of the 30(b)6. 15 He has some knowledge about it, you know, 16 just as an individual, but I think it's a little 17 bit outside the scope of, you know, what this case 18 is about. 19 I mean, the Judge has made her rulings, 20 and we have some views as to what those rulings 21 are. You have some views. I mean, it's been set 22 forth in great detail in the various papers here, 23 and I think that's probably the place where, you 24 know, you should get your information from rather 25 than from Mr. Sayles, who is not a lawyer, opining Page 50 1 on, you know, what he may feel about it, so. 2 MS. FARBER: Let's take the opportunity to 3 mark as Exhibit 1 Mr. Sayles's Deposition Notice. 4 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 5 Number 1, Notice of Deposition of Mr. Wayne Sayles, 6 marked for identification and attached to the 7 transcript.) 8 BY MS. FARBER: 9 Q. I'll show this to you in a minute, 10 Mr. Sayles. I want to wrap up a bit with some of 11 the general, just some more general questions about 12 the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild. 13 Would you agree that one of the 14 activities of the Guild is to lobby effectively 15 against the imposition of import restrictions on 16 coins of any age or place? 17 A. Well, that's a philosophical position, 18 not a legal one, but, yes, I would say that that's 19 our ultimate goal. We ultimately feel that the 20 hobby that we are inheritors of existed for 600 21 years without any of these restrictions, and it's 22 worldwide, and coins are bought and sold every 23 place around the world now with very few 24 impediments like the one that is trying to be 25 imposed on collectors in the United States, so we Page 51 1 would ideally hope that we could, that we could 2 return to that situation and be like the rest of 3 the world and not be singled out. 4 Q. By we, you mean America? 5 A. We meaning American collectors of ancient 6 coins. 7 Q. Would you also agree that one of the 8 activities of the Guild is to seek, in the event of 9 adverse legislative action, favorable 10 administrative or court interpretations affirming 11 the right of individuals to collect objects from 12 the past? 13 A. Sure. I believe that's our philosophical 14 position, and, and that hasn't changed, and I, and 15 I don't think we would have any objection to that. 16 That's, that's in our, a statement on our website, 17 I believe, a statement of purpose or something like 18 that but, yes, I would affirm that. 19 MS. FARBER: Let's mark as Exhibit 2 this 20 document. 21 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 22 Number 2, Document from Ancient Coin Collectors 23 Guild Website, marked for identification and 24 attached to the transcript.) 25 BY MS. FARBER: Page 52 1 Q. Mr. Sayles, what is Exhibit 2? 2 MR. TOMPA: I'm sorry, what was Number 1 3 again? 4 MS. FARBER: Number 1 was the Notice of 5 Deposition. Let me give you a copy. 6 MR. TOMPA: I have it. It's this one 7 right here (indicating)? 8 MS. FARBER: This one has a different 9 date on it. 10 MR. TOMPA: Okay. 11 (Document tendered.) 12 THE WITNESS: Can I expand on that 13 question, the last question? 14 BY MS. FARBER: 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. To lobby effectively. 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. And I will add at any point if 20 there's -- you know, sometimes as we go along, 21 you'll think of something that you want to add to a 22 previous question. At anytime, you can do that. 23 A. I want to give you an example of that. 24 Q. And you're giving me an example of? 25 A. Number 1, to lobby effectively against Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 14 of 61 14 (Pages 53 to 56) Page 53 1 the imposition, import restrictions on coins of any 2 age or place. 3 Q. And before you do that, what is the 4 document? What is Exhibit 2? What is this 5 document, for the record? 6 A. This is -- oh, Exhibit 2. This is a page 7 from the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild website, and 8 it's about, the section titled about ancient, about 9 the ACCG. 10 Q. Does this look to be an accurate printout 11 of the page from the Ancient Coin Collectors 12 Guild's website about the ACCG? 13 A. It does. 14 Q. Okay. I believe you were going to 15 provide an example of the first bullet point on 16 this page? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Go ahead. 19 A. Okay. I don't remember the year 20 precisely, but I'm trying to narrow it down in my 21 mind. About 2007, maybe, the ACCG attended the 22 Wisconsin State Convention of the GOP, and at the 23 GOP, we had a table where we provided information 24 about the ACCG and about the import restrictions 25 that, that were then being contemplated. Page 54 1 I don't think they had quite gone into 2 for ancient coins. There were already import 3 restrictions for many things, but ancient coins up 4 to this point had always been exempted and 5 purposely exempted, and then the change came in 6 2007. 7 And at this convention, one of our 8 members was a, was a delegate to the convention, 9 and our member introduced a resolution at the GOP 10 convention that called on all elected officials, 11 Congress -- I think they referred to it as 12 Congressmen in the resolution. The resolution, I 13 believe, is online, but it called for GOP 14 Congressmen from Wisconsin to oppose this very 15 thing, any restrictions on ancient coins, and the 16 resolution passed at the GOP convention. 17 The first year it was, it was tabled, and 18 then the following year it was brought up again and 19 passed, the resolution was passed. 20 So that was the kind of lobbying that we 21 did, and, and there were over a thousand delegates 22 to the, to the convention, and so there were a 23 number of people who agreed that our position was a 24 fair position. 25 Q. Understood. Would you agree that the Page 55 1 bullet points on this Exhibit 2 are accurate 2 statements of the objectives of the Ancient Coin 3 Collectors Guild? 4 (Whereupon, there was a pause for 5 document examination.) 6 THE WITNESS: I'll say it hasn't changed. 7 BY MS. FARBER: 8 Q. I have just a couple more questions about 9 this background material. Do you know a person 10 named Dave Welsh? 11 A. I do. 12 Q. Who is he? 13 A. He's a dealer in ancient coins who ran 14 for election on the ACCG board of directors. He 15 wasn't an original member, but he was elected along 16 the way in the second or third election, and he -- 17 I met him one time. He has a blog about ancient 18 coins. He was very active in, in his own right. 19 It had nothing to do with the ACCG in this case, 20 but he was active in opposing the inner joint 21 convention, and he is no longer a member of the 22 board. 23 Q. Do you remember around when he was 24 elected? 25 A. Well, I would say maybe 2008 or 2010. Page 56 1 Q. What position did he hold, if you 2 remember? 3 A. Well, he never held a board position, but 4 he, he was appointed head of international -- I 5 forget the exact title, but it was international -- 6 we had some, some dialogue with, with collector 7 organizations in Europe. One in particular was the 8 German Collectors Association, because they were, 9 they were working on legislation in Germany at the 10 same time. 11 They were, they were trying to, to draft, 12 helping to draft some legislation and, and I think 13 also probably something in Britain, but we needed a 14 coordinator to, to kind of just stay abreast of 15 those, of those different initiatives, and he was 16 appointed to that. 17 It turned out to be a committee of one, 18 and it never really -- I don't think there was ever 19 even a committee report generated. It never really 20 took off, so, so he was head of that committee, 21 whatever it was, and the committee probably still 22 exists because I don't think we ever dissolved it. 23 But there's nobody in that position, and, and it 24 never was a position of substance. 25 Q. When did he leave his position -- Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 15 of 61 15 (Pages 57 to 60) Page 57 1 A. About four years ago maybe. 2 Q. Let me finish that question. 3 A. Oh. 4 Q. When did he leave that position of 5 responsibility with the Guild? 6 A. That position is -- well -- 7 Q. Did he leave? 8 A. That position as the head of that 9 so-called committee? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. When, when his -- when he was no 12 longer -- well, I don't know. I mean, it was, it 13 was a board committee, so it would have to be when 14 he left the board. 15 Q. When did he leave the board? 16 A. I would have to go back and look at my 17 election results, unless you happen to know. 18 Q. No. 19 THE WITNESS: Peter, do you -- can I 20 ask -- I can't ask Peter. 21 MR. TOMPA: No. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to think. It's 23 been, it's been three or four years. 24 BY MS. FARLEY: 25 Q. Okay. Page 58 1 A. Four years. Our election is every two 2 years, so it would have to be an even number. And 3 I don't think it was two years ago, so it was 4 probably four years ago. 5 Q. What were the circumstances surrounding 6 his departure? 7 A. Well, I'm not sure of all of the 8 circumstances, but he was not asked to leave the 9 board. He was just -- I think it was health 10 reasons, but he's since seems to have gotten 11 healthier. 12 Q. Okay. 13 MS. FARBER: I would like to mark this as 14 Exhibit 3. 15 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 16 Number 3, Bylaws for the Ancient Coin Collectors 17 Guild, marked for identification and attached to 18 the transcript.) 19 BY MS. FARBER: 20 Q. I'm handing you a document marked as 21 Exhibit 3. What is this document? 22 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to just generally 23 object to this document and this line of 24 questioning because, again, I don't see it in the 25 Notice either to Mr. Sayles or the 30(b)6 Notice. Page 59 1 You could ask him some questions. You know, I have 2 a question about how really relevant this is to 3 anything, but feel free to ask some questions. I'm 4 just more concerned about time than anything else, 5 so go ahead. 6 BY MS. FARBER: 7 Q. What is the document? 8 A. These are the bylaws for the ACCG. 9 Q. Does this appear to be an accurate 10 representation of the bylaws? 11 A. Yes, it appears to be. 12 Q. Okay. That's all I have on this. 13 MS. FARBER: So I'm going to move into 14 the -- 15 MR. TOMPA: Okay. 16 MS. FARBER: -- forfeiture now. Is this 17 a good time to take a quick break? 18 MR. TOMPA: Actually, yeah, I need a 19 restroom break. 20 MS. FARBER: Okay. Let's go off the 21 record. 22 (Recess taken -- 11:09 a.m.) 23 (After recess -- 11:15 a.m.) 24 BY MS. FARBER: 25 Q. So let's turn now to the importation of Page 60 1 the coins at issue in this case. From time to 2 time, you might hear me use the phrase Defendant 3 property. When I use that phrase, I'm referring to 4 the coins that have been detained and seized in 5 this case. Will you understand it when I say 6 Defendant property? 7 A. Yes. 8 MS. FARBER: Let's mark as Exhibit 4 9 Claimant's Responses to Plaintiffs' First Set of 10 Interrogatories. 11 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 12 Number 4, Claimant's Responses to Plaintiff's First 13 Set of Interrogatories to Claimant, marked for 14 identification and attached to the transcript.) 15 BY MS. FARBER: 16 Q. Mr. Sayles, have you seen this document 17 before? 18 A. Yes, I have. 19 Q. Okay. In what context did you see it? 20 A. It was sent to me by my attorney. 21 Q. Okay. And did he send it to you after it 22 had already been completed or -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- did you provide input on it? 25 A. Well, I have -- no. I, I must have Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 16 of 61 16 (Pages 61 to 64) Page 61 1 discussed it, but as far as input goes, I probably 2 provided little input because these are legal 3 issues, so I don't know. 4 Q. So I'll direct your attention to page 3 5 of Exhibit 4. 6 A. Exhibit 4 is this one -- yes. 7 Q. Correct. And on the top of page 3 it 8 says, Mr. Sayles has knowledge about the purchase 9 of the Guild's coins and their import into the 10 United States; is that correct? 11 A. Yes. That's correct. 12 Q. Then if you'll turn to page 6 of this 13 same document, Exhibit 4, in the middle of the page 14 response number 6 says, Mr. Sayles is the founder 15 of the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild and acts as 16 its executive director. Mr. Sayles procured the 17 Defendant property and arranged for its shipment. 18 His intent was to import unprovenanced coins struck 19 in China and Cyprus for purposes of litigation to 20 test the legality of import restrictions put in 21 place on Cypriot and Chinese coins. Is that 22 accurate? 23 A. Yes, that's accurate. 24 Q. Whose idea was it to import unprovenanced 25 coins struck in China and Cyprus for the purposes Page 62 1 of litigation to test the legality of import 2 restrictions put in place on Cypriot and Chinese 3 coins? 4 A. Well, I don't think anybody came up with 5 the idea so much. Mr. Tompa and I had discussed 6 this, ways to approach our advocacy as stated 7 earlier. 8 MR. TOMPA: I'm just going to -- are you 9 finished with your, with your answer? 10 THE WITNESS: Actually, yeah. 11 MR. TOMPA: Yeah, I just want to warn the 12 witness that, you know, we have an attorney/client 13 relationship, so you can generally speak to, you 14 know, the questions that Ms. Farber may have, but I 15 may have an objection and instruct you not to 16 answer if I think you're going to get into actual 17 attorney/client conversation. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 MR. TOMPA: Do you understand that? 20 THE WITNESS: Sure, I understand that, 21 and I will avoid that. 22 MR. TOMPA: Okay. 23 MS. FARBER: Thank you. 24 BY MS. FARBER: 25 Q. I'm not trying to -- in my questions, I'm Page 63 1 not trying to ask you for any privileged 2 information. 3 A. I understand. I, I understand. 4 Q. Great. So this Interrogatory response 5 says that your intent was to import unprovenanced 6 coins struck in China and Cyprus in order to test 7 the legality of the import restrictions. So why 8 did you want to import unprovenanced coins struck 9 in China and Cyprus? 10 A. Well, the reason that I wanted to do that 11 is because a huge majority of ancient coins that 12 are in the collector market today have no 13 provenance, and so it's a big push from the 14 archaeological community, in particular, that is 15 driving many of these regulations and rules today. 16 It is based on an assumption that 17 provenance is, is a guarantee of, of legality, and 18 I disagree with that, because it may be in the case 19 of monumental statutes or something, but in the 20 case of common coins, there's never been any desire 21 really among collectors of ancient coins to 22 maintain provenance of a coin that they bought for 23 10 or 15 or $20, and so there's, there's no, 24 there's no point. 25 Now, there are tens of thousands, if not Page 64 1 hundreds of thousands, of ancient coins being 2 traded year in and year out through the 3 international market, and to try and impose some 4 kind of provenance, provenance on coins of that 5 nature is just, it would kill a market. It would 6 destroy ancient coin collecting, and that's 7 obviously what we're in the business to protect, 8 and that's why would we would oppose the -- that's 9 why we imported unprovenanced coins. 10 Q. In determining what specific Chinese and 11 Cypriot coins to import, how did you select the 12 type of coin? 13 A. Well, we selected the type of coin based 14 on the import restrictions in place at the time. 15 Q. So you -- tell me what you mean by that. 16 A. Well, take the Cypriot coins, for 17 example. We knew that there were certain cutoffs 18 by date. You know, coins after a certain date were 19 not restricted, and coins before that date were, 20 and so we, we would look for coins that applied 21 under the restriction; otherwise, they wouldn't be 22 seized or detained. So we obviously wanted the 23 coins to be detained. 24 From the very start, we wanted the 25 detention, and that was an issue for us because, Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 17 of 61 17 (Pages 65 to 68) Page 65 1 you know the story. We had a hard time getting the 2 coins detained at first because they weren't being, 3 they just were being, wanted to be passed through 4 Customs, so that was our objective, yes. We did 5 want to do that. We wanted unprovenanced coins. 6 Q. So in order to find coins that would be 7 detained -- 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- you looked to the regulations 10 governing the import of coins? 11 A. Initially, yes. 12 Q. And you used those regulations to find 13 specific coins that fell under the regulations? 14 A. More or less -- 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. -- yes. 17 Q. So the regulations specified countries of 18 origin, would that be correct to say? 19 A. Each, each -- 20 Q. Or countries of manufacture? How would, 21 how would you say it as a professional? 22 A. Well, that's a very delicate issue 23 there -- 24 Q. Right. 25 A. -- and -- Page 66 1 Q. So I'll say the regulations identify 2 countries of -- the regulations identify Cypriot 3 coins, coins of Cypriot type, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And in those regulations, they also 6 specify the years of coins that are subject to 7 import regulations? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And the general description of what coins 10 would be subject to -- 11 A. What types of coins, yes. 12 Q. And so you used those regulations about 13 Cypriot coins to find coins of Cypriot type that 14 would be subject to detention and seizure? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And you did the same for Chinese coins. 17 You looked to the -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You looked to the regulations? 20 A. We tried to. 21 Q. Okay. And the regulations regarding 22 Chinese coins set out criteria according to which 23 coins would be subject to detention and seizure; is 24 that right? 25 A. That's correct. Page 67 1 Q. And in trying to choose Chinese coins to 2 import for the purposes of this case, you chose 3 coins, for the most part, that would be subject to 4 detention and seizure pursuant to those 5 regulations? 6 A. That was our objective. 7 MS. FARBER: Let's mark this as Exhibit 8 5. 9 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 10 Number 5, Bates Number Document ACCG 30, marked for 11 identification and attached to the transcript.) 12 BY MS. FARBER: 13 Q. Do you recognize this document that's 14 been marked as Exhibit 5? The Bates number is ACCG 15 30. 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. What is this? 18 A. It's a letter from me to Jane Taeger of 19 Shapiro & Company. 20 Q. Why did you -- 21 A. It's an email. 22 Q. Why did you send this email? 23 A. Because we had been referred to Shapiro & 24 Company by Mr. Simon, Attorney Simon, Counselor 25 Simon, and he had -- he apparently had knowledge Page 68 1 that the company was able to process this sort of 2 thing, had done so in the past. 3 Q. Why did you want -- in your email, you 4 say that you wanted to assure that the seizure 5 takes place in Baltimore and not some other port of 6 entry? 7 A. Um-hum. 8 Q. Why did you want the seizure to take 9 place in Baltimore? 10 A. Because we had an attorney that could 11 process or who could represent us in this, in this 12 venue. 13 Q. And your attorney is? 14 A. Mr. Tompa. 15 Q. And he's located in the Baltimore area? 16 A. Yeah. Well, Washington, D.C. 17 Q. Now, this email just mentions interest in 18 having several ancient Cypriot coins received? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And it does not mention Chinese coins? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Why is that? 23 A. It's because Chinese coins hadn't been, 24 hadn't been restricted at that point. 25 Q. Okay. Do you recall offhand when the Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 18 of 61 18 (Pages 69 to 72) Page 69 1 Chinese coins became restricted? 2 A. It was early in 2009. The month, I'm 3 not, I don't remember exactly, but it was the 4 first, the first quarter, I believe, of 2009. 5 Q. And so is it fair to say that at that 6 point the Guild decided to add Chinese coins in 7 order to challenge both -- 8 A. Exactly. 9 Q. -- regulations? 10 A. That's exactly what we did. 11 Q. How did the Guild go about procuring or 12 finding the coins that it would import? 13 A. We looked for an importer in Britain, 14 because we knew that Britain was a likely export 15 country for us to test this, and I was at a coin 16 show in New York, and, and I knew the people from 17 Spink and Company, because they had advertised in 18 my publication, and I met Mr. Dawson there, Paul 19 Dawson, and I asked him if he, if they might be 20 interested in selling us some coins of this, of 21 these types to be used for test casing. He was 22 agreeable, and so that's, that's how it started. 23 Q. What else do you remember about that 24 conversation, if anything? 25 A. Well, at that particular point, there was Page 70 1 very little more to the conversation because we 2 didn't know that much. That was, that was about 3 January of 2009. We hadn't, we hadn't really 4 formulated the, all of the rules -- not the rules, 5 but the process, you know. We hadn't, we hadn't 6 really thought that much about -- well, I'm not 7 sure of the dating exactly on this because it might 8 have, it might have been a little bit earlier, but 9 it was before we, it was before we ever talked to 10 Shapiro. 11 Just as I was saying that, I just, I just 12 remembered this is December 2008, so my memory must 13 not be perfect on this. But I -- my memory is 14 perfect that it was Paul Dawson and it was New York 15 International, and so it could have been an earlier 16 international. But that would have to have been 17 then in December or January of -- see, the problem 18 is these, these internationals changed after 9-11, 19 and we, we -- they were -- they changed venue, and 20 they changed date. 21 So now they're in January, and I keep 22 thinking of the international in January. It was 23 at the New York International, and it was Paul 24 Dawson. It was Spink, and that's how he was 25 approached. Page 71 1 Q. And you were still in the process of 2 formulating -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- exactly what this importation would 5 look like whenever it was that you spoke with 6 Mr. Dawson? 7 A. Exactly. Exactly. 8 Q. You said something to the effect of 9 Britain being a likely export country? 10 A. Um-hum. 11 Q. What did you mean by that? 12 A. That we had imported coins from Britain 13 regularly. We knew what the laws were, and we, we 14 assumed that we could make this exportation from 15 Britain pretty easily. 16 Q. By that, you mean you could export the 17 coins legally under British law? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And so you spoke with Mr. Dawson about 20 finding Cypriot coins to import? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you speak with him at the New 23 York -- 24 A. I don't recall if I spoke to him right 25 then. Page 72 1 Q. Let me just finish the question. 2 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 3 Q. That's okay. I do the same thing. It's 4 because you know where I'm going. 5 Do you recall if you spoke with 6 Mr. Dawson at this -- is it NY, Inc.? N-Y, I-N-C.? 7 A. N-Y, I-N-C. 8 Q. Do you recall if you spoke with 9 Mr. Dawson at NY, Inc. about importing Chinese 10 coins, or did that happen later? 11 A. I believe it happened a little bit later, 12 but not very much later. 13 Q. And did you talk to him about any 14 specifics of what Cypriot coins you wanted to 15 import? 16 A. No. Just the -- just by a date. I mean, 17 we, we explained that there were certain types, and 18 that was -- there is another correspondence, which 19 you should have a copy of, that tells what the 20 periods were, that, that clarification, but at the 21 time I originally talked to Paul Dawson, we did not 22 talk about specific coins. That was somehow 23 relayed later. 24 MS. FARBER: This is Exhibit 6. 25 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 19 of 61 19 (Pages 73 to 76) Page 73 1 Number 6, Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 99 through 2 ACCG 103, marked for identification and attached to 3 the transcript.) 4 BY MS. FARBER: 5 Q. I'm showing you a document that we marked 6 as Exhibit 6. This is Bates stamped number ACCG 99 7 to 103. Do you recognize this? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. What is it? 10 A. It's communication from Paul Dawson to 11 Peter Tompa telling us that he had located some, 12 five Cypriot coins of low grade. He calls them a 13 bit grim, so. 14 Q. Very British. 15 A. They are a bit grim; yes. 16 Q. You're on this email chain as well, 17 right? 18 A. I am. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. And -- yes. 21 Q. Were you going to say something? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. I am. 25 Q. If you go to page 100 and continuing on Page 74 1 to 101, it looks like you send an email to Paul 2 Dawson cc:ing Peter Tompa and Bill Puetz. Subject: 3 Chinese and Cypriot Coins? 4 A. Yes. Oh, yes. Yes. Go ahead. 5 Q. And this is sent February 12th, 2009, and 6 you write, I enjoyed talking with you at the NY, 7 Inc. last month -- 8 A. Right. 9 Q. -- and would like to follow up on your 10 kind offer to supply an assortment of coins -- 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. -- for a test of the import restrictions 13 both on ancient coins of Cyprus and China? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And his -- Mr. Dawson's kind offer to 16 supply an assortment of coins, what was that? What 17 were they? 18 A. Well, that's what we were just talking 19 about, and, and this confirms the date. I wasn't 20 positive of that date, but, yes, here it is. And 21 so it was 2009, and it was at the Inc. at the, in 22 New York, yes. So -- 23 Q. His kind offer to supply an assortment of 24 coins, was he offering to sort of donate the coins 25 to ACCG for this purpose? Page 75 1 A. I don't recall if he really intended to 2 donate them at that point, but he did agree to find 3 them for us. 4 Q. So supply doesn't mean -- 5 A. I think that means, that means to go out 6 and look for them in Britain from unprovenanced 7 sources and supply them to us in that sense for 8 the, for the -- the invoicing is not, was not 9 discussed here. 10 Q. In your previous conversation with 11 Mr. Dawson at NY, Inc. what did you tell him about 12 the importance of having unprovenanced coins, if 13 anything? 14 A. Well, I don't think I ever really talked 15 to him about why we wanted unprovenanced coins. I 16 think he understood that, frankly. I mean, he's a 17 dealer, and he would understand that issue. But I, 18 I don't recall ever having a conversation with him 19 about it, but I, I don't know. I should avoid 20 conjecture. I shouldn't conjecture. 21 Q. Okay. Now, page 101 continues to, your 22 email continues to say, We would require pieces 23 that are attributable to a Chinese or a Cypriot 24 mint. Is that -- why did you say that? 25 A. Why? Page 76 1 Q. Why would you require pieces that are 2 attributable to a Chinese or Cypriot mint? 3 A. Well, so that they would apply under the 4 restrictions, under these specific restrictions, 5 not some other MOU, but this specific MOU that we 6 were challenging. 7 Q. And you specifically requested coins that 8 do not bear any record of provenance? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And why was that? 11 A. Because we were concerned about the fact 12 that the coins being imported were being imported 13 regardless of their provenance and that most coins 14 don't have provenance; therefore, it's a catch 22 15 for collectors. 16 Their, their coins are going to be 17 restricted regardless of whether they're legal or 18 not, and legal coins are not supposed to be 19 restricted. So the administration of the law was 20 not correct. That's what we were challenging, is 21 the administration of the law, and not the, not the 22 law itself. 23 Q. Now, you specify a list of the coins 24 needed, and then there's a 3 in parenthesis. Does 25 that -- Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 20 of 61 20 (Pages 77 to 80) Page 77 1 A. That's the number 3. 2 Q. That's okay. So that number, that number 3 3, does that indicate the number of coins of that 4 type I suppose that you wanted? 5 A. It does. 6 Q. Okay. So you say three AE from a Chinese 7 mint produced before AD 907, preferably from 8 different rulers. What is AE? 9 A. Bronze. 10 Q. Why did you request that type of coin? 11 A. Well, because it was the only kind of 12 coin struck. The Chinese didn't strike in silver 13 coins in the Tang Dynasty. 14 Q. Why did you request a coin produced 15 before AD 907 preferably from different rulers? 16 A. Can I back up a second? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. The Tang Dynasty might have produced gold 19 coins, but I don't know. But we didn't -- we were 20 not trying to import expensive coins. We were 21 trying to import coins that were ordinary collector 22 coins. 23 Q. Okay. And why did you want coins that 24 were produced before AD 907, preferably from 25 different rulers? Page 78 1 A. Because that's -- well, 89 is, 907 is the 2 cutoff of the Tang Dynasty in the MOU -- not the 3 MOU. Well, in the MOU itself, yes, and also in 4 the, in the rule that's applied. 5 Q. Then you request one AE or AR from a 6 Cypriot mint during the -- 7 A. Ptolemaic. 8 Q. -- Ptolemaic period. I was hoping that 9 you would help me with the pronunciation. 10 Ptolemaic, it's a silent P? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What is AR? 13 A. Silver. 14 Q. And why did you request a bronze or 15 silver coin from a Cypriot mint during the 16 Ptolemaic period? 17 A. Because the Ptolemaic period is covered 18 under the MOU. 19 Q. Then you request one bronze or silver 20 from a Cypriot mint during the Roman period? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Why? 23 A. Because parts of the Roman period are 24 also covered. 25 Q. Parts of the Roman period? Page 79 1 A. Right. 2 Q. So did you want a coin that was covered 3 by the -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- regulations? 6 A. We did. 7 Q. Why didn't you specify the years so that 8 you would get a coin that was covered by the 9 regulations? 10 A. Well, I don't recall just exactly what 11 the date is on the cutoff, but maybe -- see, the 12 only coins struck in Cyprus during the Roman period 13 really were Roman provincial coins, and they would 14 have all probably been covered in the same period. 15 Q. And then finally, you request one bronze 16 from a Cypriot mint during the Byzantine -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- period? 19 A. It turns out. In retrospect, that, that 20 that period was not included in the MOU, so we 21 didn't need that coin anyway, and it -- we must 22 have later communicated that to Mr. Dawson, because 23 we didn't get any. 24 Q. And you didn't ship a coin -- 25 A. No. Page 80 1 Q. -- from the Byzantine period? 2 A. No. And it would have been easier to 3 find than the others probably because they're 4 common, very, very common. 5 Q. Okay. There's a later email or there's 6 an email later in the chain in which Peter Tompa 7 says, I'm not sure we need a Cypriot coin from the 8 Byzantine period? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. Which is what you were referring to? 11 A. Exactly. 12 Q. Did you -- now looking at page 99 of 13 Exhibit 6, it's the first page, but it's Bates 14 stamped number ACCG 99, Peter Tompa writes: 15 Thinking about this more in layman's terms. We 16 should have no idea whether the coin in question 17 was out of Cyprus as of 1/16/07 or whether the 18 Chinese coin was outside of China before 1/16/09. 19 Did you have an understanding of why that was 20 important? 21 A. Not particularly, because there is 22 probably a legal reason that I shouldn't even begin 23 to hypothesize on. 24 Q. Okay. Did that have anything to do with 25 the Memorandums of Understanding and when the coins Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 21 of 61 21 (Pages 81 to 84) Page 81 1 would have fallen under restrictions? 2 A. It, it may have. 3 Q. You're not sure? 4 A. It's -- I don't know. 5 Q. Okay. And then at the top of the email, 6 Paul, Paul Dawson on February 23rd, 2009, and this 7 is, again, on Exhibit 6 -- 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- Bates number 99, Paul Dawson says he's 10 managed to locate five bronze Cypriot coins, Roman. 11 They are a bit grim, though, and he's been able to 12 find Chinese coins that match your criteria? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. What did you do with this information? 15 Is that vague? 16 A. That's vague. 17 Q. So did it matter to you that the coins 18 were in grim condition? 19 A. It only mattered that, that there was no 20 incentive for us to look for prime examples. 21 Q. Because your intention was that the coins 22 be detained? 23 A. Exactly. 24 Q. Now, I believe that in the end, more than 25 five Cypriot coins were included in the shipment Page 82 1 that was detained; is that correct? 2 A. I believe so. I know so. 3 Q. Do you know why more Cypriot coins were 4 added than these original five? 5 A. Because those are the ones that Paul 6 Dawson came up with. 7 Q. Tell me more about that. 8 A. I really don't know much more about that. 9 He just said, I have a group of Cypriot coins. He 10 said five, but it turns out there were more. We 11 received photographs of the coins, and there were 12 more than five. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I think there were actually five 15 envelopes, and in some of the envelopes, there was 16 more than one coin, so that's probably how the 17 number five turned into nine. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. In fact, if you look at the photographs, 20 I think you can see two coins under one envelope, 21 something like that. I never really -- I 22 didn't -- see, it did not matter to us. The point 23 was that we wanted coins of that type from that 24 place, and the number and the value was really not 25 that significant to us. Page 83 1 Q. Now, Paul says that he has been unable to 2 find Chinese coins? 3 A. Um-hum. 4 Q. Did you eventually talk to someone else 5 about finding Chinese coins? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Who was that? 8 A. Robert Kokotailo. 9 Q. Who is Robert Kokotailo? 10 A. He's a coin dealer from Calgary, Canada. 11 Alberta, Canada. 12 Q. Now, I should say referring to the 13 Cypriot coins, did all of the Cypriot coins come 14 from Spink? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you have any doubts about the 17 authenticity of any of those coins? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Spink is a reputable coin dealer, a 20 reputable auction house? 21 A. Yes, and the nature of the coins, nobody 22 would forge coins like that. 23 Q. Because they're -- why is that? 24 A. Because they're not saleable as prime 25 collectible coins to the general public, and you Page 84 1 can't make a lot of money on them. I mean, they're 2 saleable in the sense that every ancient coin has, 3 has its own value as a piece of history, but then 4 collectibles, you know, range from a coin worth $5 5 to a coin worth $5,000 or $5 million, and our point 6 was not to, to concern ourselves with the $5 7 million coins. We were talking about coins that 8 are natural collector coins, and so that, that's 9 how it came up. 10 MS. FARBER: This will be Exhibit 7. 11 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 12 Number 7, Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 94 to ACCG 13 95, marked for identification and attached to the 14 transcript.) 15 BY MS. FARBER: 16 Q. I'm showing you a document that's been 17 marked as Exhibit 7. This is ACCG 94 to 95. 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Do you recognize this? 20 A. I do. 21 Q. What is it? 22 A. This is a letter from Robert Kokotailo to 23 me saying that he had found coins. I had asked if 24 he had anything that, that would fall in that 25 category. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 22 of 61 22 (Pages 85 to 88) Page 85 1 Q. Robert -- 2 A. Kokotailo. 3 Q. -- Kokotailo is the coin dealer that you 4 used -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- to find the Chinese coins? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. So looking at ACCG 95, which is the 9 second page of Exhibit 7, you wrote to remind 10 Mr. Kokotailo about the four or five Chinese coins 11 from pre-AD 907; do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that, again, those -- that time 14 period you chose because why? Because it was, it 15 was subject to the regulations governing Chinese 16 coins? 17 A. Because it had been added. China had 18 been added. We had this discussion a little 19 earlier -- 20 Q. Right. 21 A. -- but China, the MOU from China had come 22 up in the interim, and we thought that this was an 23 opportune time to add the two under the same suit. 24 Q. And it covered, the MOU for China covered 25 pre-AD 907? Page 86 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Kokotailo emailed you on March 31st, 3 2009 attaching images of the coins and -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- and providing basic data to describe 6 them? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Mr. Kokotailo notes in his email, All are 9 absolutely genuine; do you see that? 10 A. I do. 11 Q. Do you have any doubt about the genuine 12 nature of these coins? 13 A. I have no real expertise in Chinese 14 coins, but I do know Mr. Kokotailo really well, and 15 I know that I value and trust his statement that 16 they are genuine. 17 Q. So if Mr. Kokotailo says the coins are 18 all absolutely genuine, you have no reason to doubt 19 that? 20 A. None. 21 Q. And you don't currently make a claim that 22 any of these coins are not genuine? 23 A. Well, I'm not making that claim. I don't 24 know that there, that the ACCG has made that claim. 25 I, I don't think. I don't know. Page 87 1 Q. Okay. Mr. Kokotailo says on ACCG 94, 2 With the damage and low grades, the entire lot 3 probably is worth less than $25; do you see that? 4 A. I do. 5 Q. I know you've said you're not an expert 6 in Chinese coins. Do you have any opinion about 7 the value of the entire lot as described here? 8 A. Well, as described here, it is sort of 9 loose ended, because the $25 is, you're talking 10 about wholesale, you're talking about retail, and 11 it depends on who you're selling the coin to. 12 You know, I mean, it's just -- somebody 13 that has 15 of this coin, you know, and you try to 14 sell them one, they're not going to want to pay 15 very much, and someone that has never seen one will 16 pay more. And that's pretty much the nature of the 17 business, I'm afraid, in that a coin is worth what 18 people will pay for it. That's just -- it's 19 not -- there's no other way. That's -- the 20 business has always been that way. 21 Q. It's subjective? 22 A. It's subjective, yes. 23 Q. So you'd agree that Mr. Kokotailo has 24 more -- and I don't mean this to be offensive. He 25 has more knowledge about Chinese coins than you do, Page 88 1 would that be correct to say? 2 A. Absolutely correct. 3 Q. He has more expertise in Chinese coins? 4 A. But he's not a dealer in Chinese coins 5 especially. He's not -- I mean, that's not a 6 specialty of his, but he does sell Chinese coins, 7 and he sells world coins, you see. 8 These Chinese coins are more often sold 9 as world coins than ancient coins, but they fall 10 into the ancient period because they started -- as 11 you see from the coins that were included, some are 12 very old, into the ancient world; some of them are 13 not as ancient, and so the boot line is blurred 14 about what it is. 15 That's one of the reasons, I think, why 16 the Tang Dynasty was decided as the separating 17 point. They were going consider everything from 18 907 backward, and that's pretty much most of them 19 in most peoples' eyes is ancient, but it's still 20 subjective. 21 Q. You would agree that Mr. Kokotailo has 22 more experience with Chinese coins than you do? 23 A. More -- sure. More experience, yes. 24 Almost in every -- yeah, in every case I would say 25 because I just don't deal in Chinese coins at all. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 23 of 61 23 (Pages 89 to 92) Page 89 1 Q. Right. You do agree that he has more 2 experience valuing Chinese coins than you do? 3 A. Well, as I said before, valuing is too 4 subjective to say. I think I have probably as much 5 or more experience than Mr. Kokotailo has in 6 selling coins. 7 Now, what you can get for any particular 8 coin in any particular day is, is subjective for 9 him as it is for me, so I don't think he 10 necessarily knows any more about the value of these 11 coins than I would know, because if I had those 12 coins in hand and we were trying to sell them, I 13 would find out what the value is, and there are 14 plenty of ways to find out. 15 Q. I think what I'm trying to understand is 16 I understand that both of you have a lot of 17 experience selling coins generally. Do you -- 18 would you agree that Mr. Kokotailo has more 19 experience selling Chinese coins specifically, in 20 that he's sold more Chinese coins than you have? 21 Would you agree with that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. So after Mr. Kokotailo obtained 24 the Chinese coins, what was, what did -- did he 25 send them to Spink? Was that the instruction? Page 90 1 A. He did. 2 Q. Did you communicate with Spink after they 3 received these Chinese coins? 4 A. Yes. 5 MS. FARBER: Let's mark this as Exhibit 6 8. 7 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 8 Number 8, Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 51 through 9 53, marked for identification and attached to the 10 transcript.) 11 BY MS. FARBER: 12 Q. Mr. Sayles, this is a document that we 13 have marked as Exhibit 8. This is Bates numbered 14 ACCG 51 to 53. Do you recognize this document? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. What is it? 17 A. Well, this is a, it starts off with 18 a -- actually, there are two letters here. Which 19 page are we on, 51? 20 Q. 51 to 53. 21 A. They're not the same document I don't 22 think. Are they? No. 51 -- 23 Q. It looks like the same email. 24 A. The letter is an email from Jane Taeger 25 to me. Page 91 1 Q. Okay. I see. 2 A. And then 52 is a different document. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. It's a little confusing. I'm not sure. 5 It says sent to David Harlow, Paul Dawson, 6 etcetera, etcetera. To all addressed: Originator 7 of the document is: Paul Dawson. 8 So I guess this is a letter -- this is an 9 email from Paul Dawson to me, and it lists the 10 articles that were in the shipment. 11 MS. FARBER: So let's update Exhibit 8 to 12 remove page 51, and Exhibit 8 will be ACCG 52 to 13 53. 14 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 15 Number 8, Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 52 and ACCG 16 53, marked for identification and attached to the 17 transcript.) 18 BY MS. FARBER: 19 Q. So looking at page 52 -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- this is an email that you sent; is 22 that correct? 23 A. This is a partial email. 24 Q. Your complete email is -- 25 A. It doesn't -- Page 92 1 Q. -- included. 2 A. It doesn't have a from address, but it's 3 addressed to everybody but me, so it could be from 4 me. 5 Q. Do you see your signature in the 6 middle -- 7 A. Oh. 8 Q. -- of ACCG 53? 9 A. I see it, yes. Yes. Okay. Agreed it is 10 from me. 11 Q. Okay. In this email, you list 23 ancient 12 coins in 11 groups? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you ever get to actually physically 15 examine the coins before they were shipped? 16 A. I did not. 17 Q. Did you get to confirm with your eye, 18 with your own eyes that 23 coins were included in 19 the shipment? 20 A. I received -- no. To confirm with my own 21 eyes? I didn't see the shipment, so I couldn't. I 22 had a -- I had photographs of the coins that were 23 sent, but to confirm with my own eyes that they 24 were in the shipment, I was not able to do that; 25 no. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 24 of 61 24 (Pages 93 to 96) Page 93 1 Q. Because the coins were in London and -- 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. -- you were not in London? 4 A. Right. And then, of course, the coins 5 were in Baltimore, and I was not in Baltimore. 6 Q. Right. 7 MS. FARBER: Let's mark this document as 8 Exhibit 9. 9 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 10 Number 9, Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 62 through 11 ACCG 63, marked for identification and attached to 12 the transcript.) 13 BY MS. FARBER: 14 Q. I'm showing you a document marked Exhibit 15 9. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. This is Bates numbered ACCG 62 to 63? 18 A. Um-hum. 19 Q. Do you recognize this? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. I think we all know this document very 22 well by this point. What is it? 23 A. This is the invoice from Spink for the 24 coins that were shipped. 25 Q. So there -- the first page, page 62, is Page 94 1 an invoice; is that right? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. And then the second page of the invoice 4 contains a schedule of contents; is that right? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And that's on ACCG 63, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Does this schedule of contents match 9 the articles included within the shipment according 10 to your email on April 2nd, 2009, which was 11 Exhibit -- 12 A. It does. 13 Q. -- 8? 14 A. Yeah, I'm sure it does. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. Let's go down the list here. For 16 now, I'm going to skip this first, this first line. 17 We'll come back to that. 18 The second line says or the second item 19 says, has a (2). Does that indicate the number of 20 coins -- 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. -- of this type? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. So it says (2) China, Zhou, is that 25 right? Zhou Dynasty, did I pronounce that Page 95 1 correctly? 2 A. I'm not the Chinese expert, but I'll take 3 your pronunciation. 4 MS. FARBER: Peter, do you know? 5 MR. TOMPA: I do not. 6 BY MS. FARBER: 7 Q. Okay. We'll call it Zhou. Two China, 8 Zhou Dynasty knife-shaped coins ca, does that mean 9 circa? 10 A. Yes, about it means. 11 Q. Circa 300 BC. One is broken. No 12 recorded provenance. Find spot unknown. Fair 13 market value $25; do you see that? 14 A. I do. 15 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt this 16 description on the invoice, on the schedule of 17 contents? 18 A. Well, being that I -- yeah, of course, I 19 can see exactly where you're headed, but no, I have 20 no reason to doubt it. I made that -- I'm the one 21 who put these numbers on here, so I'm the one you 22 have to ask. 23 I know that a coin like this, if that's 24 what you're asking -- never mind. You ask the 25 question. Page 96 1 Q. So the question is, Is this an accurate 2 description of the, of the two knife-shaped coins 3 that were shipped? 4 A. Yes, as far as I can tell it is, because 5 I didn't see the coins. But I saw the pictures, 6 and so I assume it's an accurate description; yes. 7 Q. To your knowledge, the two Zhou Dynasty 8 knife-shaped coins that were shipped are circa 300 9 BC? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Came from the Zhou Dynasty? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Are knife-shaped coins? 14 A. Exactly. 15 Q. And the next line -- 16 A. As far as I know. 17 Q. Okay. You have no reason to doubt the 18 accuracy of that description? 19 A. No. 20 Q. The next line is, it says, (1) China, 21 Zhou Dynasty spade-shaped coin circa 400 BC. 22 Broken. No recorded provenance. Find spot 23 unknown. Do you see that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. As far as you know, is that an accurate Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 25 of 61 25 (Pages 97 to 100) Page 97 1 description of that coin? 2 A. As far as I know. 3 Q. Then there's a line (3) China, Han 4 Dynasty, Wu Shu type coins circa 100 BC - AD 220. 5 Do you see that? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. Is that an accurate description of those 8 three Chinese coins? 9 A. As far as I know. 10 Q. The next one is (3) China, Western Han 11 Dynasty Ban Liang coins circa 200 - 150 BC? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is that an accurate description of those 14 coins? 15 A. As far as I know. 16 Q. For the remainder of these, the next line 17 Cyprus, unattributed bronze coins. Roman period. 18 Two of them? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Are those accurately described? 21 A. They are. 22 Q. Okay. And when I'm asking you about 23 accurate descriptions for the preceding questions 24 and for those to come, I'm asking whether these 25 coins are as described here; does that make sense? Page 98 1 A. Yes. I see nothing wrong with the 2 descriptions. 3 Q. Okay. Looking at the next line, Cyprus, 4 AE 28 millimeters, Augustus, 27 BC - AD 14, head of 5 Augustus. Is that an accurate description? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. The same question for the next line, 8 Cyprus, AE 22 millimeters? 9 A. It is. 10 Q. It's an accurate description? 11 A. Yes, it is. 12 Q. Cyprus, AE 30 millimeters, Severan era. 13 Is that an accurate description? 14 A. Yes, it's accurate. 15 Q. And that coin comes from AD 193-217? 16 A. Sometime during that period; yes. 17 Q. The next line is Cyprus, AE 24 18 millimeters, Ptolemaeus, AD 14-37? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. That's an accurate description? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And then finally, Cyprus, AE 24 23 millimeters, Tiberius AD 14-37, head of Tiberius? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. That's an accurate description? Page 99 1 A. It is. 2 Q. Do you have a sense for what your 3 obligations are as an importer regarding providing 4 accurate documentation to a company, your 5 importations? 6 A. A sense of it? 7 Q. Yeah. Do you have any knowledge? 8 A. I think I have a sense that you have, 9 that you have to describe an item accurately, and 10 you have to value it accurately, or as well as you 11 can, and, you know, that's pretty much it. 12 Q. And is that what you did here? 13 A. That's what we did. I did this, so it's 14 what I did; yes. 15 Q. And you, you produced an accurate 16 invoice, right? 17 A. Well, since -- this is the invoice 18 essentially. 19 Q. By this, do you mean ACCG 63? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Yes. So the schedule of contents -- as 22 far as you know, all of the information on the 23 schedule of contents is accurate? 24 A. Well, it's accurate, but it's subjective. 25 Q. As far as the values? Page 100 1 A. As far as the values. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. But, yes, as far as I know, this is 4 accurate. 5 Q. So excluding -- 6 A. This is what should have been on the 7 invoice. It is what was on the invoice. 8 Q. Right. Excluding the values, since I 9 understand your point that those are subjective and 10 different people might value a coin differently -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- all of the descriptions, except for 13 the values, those are objectively accurate? 14 A. Well -- objectively, yes, in the sense 15 that, that you can always find coins that we don't 16 know entirely, and we lump them into general 17 categories, but, you know, yes. I think these are 18 accurate descriptions. 19 If I were selling one of these coins to a 20 client of mine, I would use this description, and I 21 would stand behind that coin. And if it proved to 22 be something else, I would take the coin back, but, 23 yes, I believe I wouldn't sell it if I didn't think 24 it was accurate. 25 Q. So I'd like to ask you about the first Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 26 of 61 26 (Pages 101 to 104) Page 101 1 line of the schedule of contents which we skipped. 2 So this first line says (7) China, unattributed 3 bronze coins more than 100 years old. Why were 4 these coins included in the shipment, if you know? 5 A. Well, I've been thinking about that some, 6 and if memory serves me right, those coins were 7 coins that Paul Dawson found in London after the 8 shipment from Robert Kokotailo had come to him. 9 So in the process of this, you know, 10 there was, some of these Chinese coins came from 11 Robert, and some of these came from London, both of 12 them being unprovenanced, and both of them, you 13 know, valued as they are subjectively. But I, 14 I, in my own mind, am a little confused about that 15 process. 16 However, I'm almost certain that, that 17 those coins, the ones here that they were a later 18 group -- if you look at the folders, you can see 19 there are obviously two different groups, and I 20 think the later group came from Paul. Now, 21 ultimately they all came from Paul, from Spink. 22 Now, where -- what you're asking me is 23 where Spink got them from, and I don't know except 24 that I know that in the case of some of these coins 25 they were sent to him from Canada. The rest of Page 102 1 them, I couldn't tell you where he got those, 2 except that we gave them the general parameters of 3 what we wanted. 4 Q. And what were those parameters? 5 A. As spelled out earlier. We've discussed 6 this. You ran through that list, and that's, 7 that's what we gave to Paul. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. In fact, you have the documentation of 10 that. 11 Q. Based on the MOU? 12 A. That was -- 13 Q. The parameters were based on the MOU? 14 A. That's what we chose the parameters from; 15 yes. 16 Q. So did these unattributed bronze coins 17 more than 100 years old fall within those 18 parameters? 19 A. Well, I don't know because I didn't 20 choose those coins, and, you know, I didn't see 21 that picture of those coins until, until, you know, 22 they were already shipped or in the process of 23 being shipped, so I couldn't really answer that 24 question. 25 Q. Okay. Page 103 1 MR. TOMPA: Molissa, would you mind if we 2 take a five-minute break to use the restroom? 3 MS. FARBER: Oh, sure. Yes. 4 (Recess taken -- 12:13 p.m.) 5 (After recess -- 12:18 p.m.) 6 BY MS. FARBER: 7 Q. Okay. Mr. Sayles, we were talking about 8 the first item on the schedule of contents that 9 accompanied the shipment. This is Exhibit 9, ACCG 10 63 -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- and that first line is unattributed 13 bronze coins more than 100 years old. Was there 14 any discussion about whether these coins fell under 15 the import restrictions? 16 A. I can't recall that, and I can't recall a 17 discussion. I think they were assumed at that time 18 that they fell under the import restrictions. They 19 were assumed by me that they fell, but I don't 20 recall any discussion about the possibility that 21 they didn't, so I really -- I can't shed much light 22 on that. 23 Q. Did there ever come a point where there 24 was discussion about whether these coins fell under 25 the import restrictions? Page 104 1 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to object because I 2 think now you're getting into an attorney/client 3 area, because now you're in the case, and I think 4 we did have a discussion about that. 5 MS. FARBER: Okay. 6 BY MS. FARBER: 7 Q. Okay. I would like you to look at a 8 document that you already have. This is Exhibit 4. 9 It's a document labeled, Claimant's Responses to 10 Plaintiff's First Set of Interrogatories to 11 Claimant? 12 A. I'm sorry? 13 Q. It's marked as Exhibit 4. 14 A. Okay. Yes. 15 Q. If you turn to page 6 and look at 16 Response Number 7, that response says, Some of the 17 Chinese coins do not appear to be on the designated 18 list. 19 A. Um-hum. 20 Q. Do you know to which coins that statement 21 refers? 22 A. I would -- I don't know, but I know that 23 the coins that were sent from Canada were clearly 24 on the list. Well, I'm sorry, because they were 25 some of the cash coins. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 27 of 61 27 (Pages 105 to 108) Page 105 1 The cash coins are the ones that have 2 little square holes in the middle. There's were 3 cash coins from Canada as well, and those are the 4 coins -- I know that the spade coins and the knife 5 coins are definitely on the list. 6 The cash coins that, maintain the same 7 look over a period of a thousand years, and some of 8 them are post-Tang Dynasty; some of them are 9 pre-Tang Dynasty, and I couldn't tell you the 10 difference without having to sit down with a 11 catalog and match them up and research them, which 12 I did not do. 13 Q. When you say cash coins, are you 14 referring to the unattributed bronze coins? Are 15 those cash coins? 16 A. I think, I think those seven coins -- is 17 that the ones you're talking about? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. I think those are all cash coins, yes. 20 I'm sure they were. 21 Q. Now, looking at the schedule of 22 content -- 23 MR. TOMPA: Just for clarity sake, I 24 think, and you can ask him just to confirm, but I 25 think some of the ones that were sent by Page 106 1 Mr. Kokotailo were also cash coins. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's what I just 3 said. 4 MS. FARBER: Okay. 5 MR. TOMPA: Just so you understand it. 6 You can have him confirm it so I'm not testifying. 7 MS. FARBER: Okay. 8 BY MS. FARBER: 9 Q. Let's look at ACCG 63, which is Exhibit 10 9. It's the invoice, and look at the schedule of 11 contents there. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So are you saying that the seven 14 unattributed bronze coins more than 100 years old, 15 that those are all cash coins? 16 A. Well, they're all -- yes. From the 17 photos I've seen, they're all cash coins, but that 18 doesn't mean they are or are not within the coins 19 on the restricted list, because the coins on the 20 restricted list include cash coins and non-cash 21 coins. 22 Q. From certain dates? 23 A. Certain dates, yes. And the question 24 here is, What are the dates of those coins? I 25 can't tell you. Page 107 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. I know the criteria they were supposed to 3 be selected under. That's all I know. 4 Q. Okay. The criteria they were supposed to 5 be selected under is what we've discussed? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Coins that would fall under the -- 8 A. Right. 9 Q. -- MOU and that would be -- 10 A. And we also discussed the fact that these 11 coins apparently came from a different source. 12 They did not verify to us necessarily at the time. 13 They came, they came from, from Britain, I believe. 14 Q. The seven unattributed bronze coins came 15 from -- 16 A. Well, whether this seven includes all of 17 the coins that came from Britain or not, I couldn't 18 say. I would have to look at the photos again and 19 think about it, but I'm -- and, again, I'm -- this 20 is secondhand because I wasn't there, but I know 21 that, that the appearance is that some of these 22 coins were coins that Paul Dawson added, and those 23 I couldn't tell you what the dates are. So it's 24 possible that some of those do not fall under the 25 MOU. Page 108 1 Q. Okay. You -- the Guild is not disputing 2 that the two China, Zhou Dynasty knife-shaped coins 3 circa 300 BC fall under the regulations; is that 4 right? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And the Guild is not disputing that the 7 one China, Zhou Dynasty spade-shaped coin circa 400 8 BC falls under the regulations? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. The Guild is not disputing that the three 11 China, Han Dynasty Wu Shu type coins circa 100 12 BC - AD 20 fall under the regulations? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. The Guild is not disputing that the three 15 China, Western Han Dynasty Ban Liang coin circa 200 16 to 150 BC fall under the regulations? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And the Guild is not disputing that any 19 of the Cypriot coins on the schedule of contents 20 fall under the regulations? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. So the Guild does dispute that at least 23 some of the seven China unattributed bronze coins 24 more than 100 years old fall under the regulations? 25 A. I think here it's a legal question that I Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 28 of 61 28 (Pages 109 to 112) Page 109 1 can't really answer when you say does dispute. 2 But, I mean, are we arguing that case or not? I 3 can't say. 4 Q. Okay. So it's the Guild's position 5 that -- what is the Guild's position regarding 6 whether the seven China unattributed bronze coins 7 more than 100 years old are subject to import 8 regulations? 9 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to object and allow 10 him to answer, but note that I think we responded 11 to Request for Admissions -- 12 MS. FARBER: Okay. 13 MR. TOMPA: -- that relate to this. It 14 may be -- I would refer to that as opposed to 15 Mr. Sayles's guessing. 16 MS. FARBER: Sure. 17 MR. TOMPA: You can answer if you can. I 18 just don't know if you can. 19 THE WITNESS: Well, I, I don't -- 20 frankly, I don't recall getting involved in any 21 decision to dispute or not dispute. Now, I'm not 22 saying that didn't happen. I just don't recall it. 23 BY MS. FARBER: 24 Q. Okay. And the discussions regarding 25 whether these coins were subject to import Page 110 1 restrictions occurred after the detention of the 2 coins; is that right? 3 A. At the time the coins were detained, I 4 assumed that all of them applied under the import 5 restrictions. 6 Q. Okay. And at some point later, I'm not 7 asking for the content of these conversations, but 8 at some point later, you came to believe that might 9 be otherwise? 10 A. Apparently. 11 Q. Do you know why the Guild believes that 12 some of the, some or all of the unattributed bronze 13 coins more than 100 years old might not appear on 14 the designated list? You may have answered this 15 already. 16 A. The attributed coins, Chinese coins 17 you're talking about? 18 Q. Right. Is it fair to say that the reason 19 why some of the unattributed bronze coins more than 20 100 years old may not appear on the designated list 21 is that those cash-type coins could have a range of 22 dates and that some of them -- 23 A. It's because we don't have a -- 24 Q. Let me just finish my question. Some of 25 them could be before the -- some of them could fall Page 111 1 within the dates outlined in the regulations and 2 accompanying MOU and some could fall after, am I 3 understanding that correctly? 4 A. Okay. I'm, I'm not really sure of that, 5 but I would have to -- I'm going to speculate, even 6 though I'm told not to, but I'm going to speculate 7 that it came to our attention somehow. I don't 8 have a clue how that happened, but, but it 9 apparently has happened because it's in the 10 responses, and so I can't say any more than that. 11 I don't know any more than that part. 12 Q. But the idea is that cash coins can span 13 a range of time? 14 A. They do span. I know that for a fact. 15 They span a huge range of time, and some of them 16 are covered, and some of them aren't, and the 17 distinction between them is very difficult to make. 18 I mean, you really have to be an expert in Chinese 19 coins, so it's a hard thing. 20 MS. FARBER: Let's mark this document as 21 Exhibit 10. 22 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 23 Number 10 Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 04 through 24 08, marked for identification and attached to the 25 transcript.) Page 112 1 BY MS. FARBER: 2 Q. So tell me a little bit -- tell me about 3 the process of -- tell me about the time period 4 in-between shipping the coins and being notified 5 that the coins were detained. What happened in 6 that time period as far as the shipment is 7 concerned? 8 A. All right. 9 MR. TOMPA: I'm just going to object to 10 this to the extent that -- I mean, he knows sort of 11 secondhand, so he could say what he knows, but he 12 was not, you know, at the -- he was not here in 13 Baltimore. He was not with the Customs officers, 14 and the broker, to the extent that they discussed 15 it, so that's my objection. 16 BY MS. FARBER: 17 Q. Let me -- 18 MS. FARBER: Noted. 19 BY MS. FARBER: 20 Q. Let me just state, for the record, that 21 the document that I have handed to you that's been 22 marked at Exhibit 10 is ACCG 4 to ACCG 8. And what 23 is this document generally? 24 A. This is an email from Jane Taeger from 25 Shapiro & Company that talks about the, the Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 29 of 61 29 (Pages 113 to 116) Page 113 1 importation and my concerns. She's responding to 2 my concerns about data, that we weren't getting 3 feedback, and so -- 4 Q. And so what was going on in the time 5 period between when the coins were shipped to 6 Baltimore and when the coins were detained? 7 A. Well, that's the crux of the, of the 8 email to Jane Taeger, is that I was expecting them 9 to show up and, and to be processed on the day they 10 were shipped, and I didn't get that notification. 11 And several days passed and I didn't get the 12 notification, and finally, I did get the 13 notification from -- and this is the, the document, 14 the Exhibit 10. 15 And what happened was that, that the 16 coins were submitted to, to Customs for processing, 17 supposedly, with the understanding that, that they 18 were to be detained for a test case, and -- at 19 least that's what we were advised and that, and 20 that there was a repeated effort to do this, and at 21 least four Customs agents passed the coins. 22 So they had to keep on recycling the 23 coins trying to get them back in the system, and 24 finally, on the fifth try, they got a Customs agent 25 to agree to, to detain the coins. And, of course, Page 114 1 they weren't seized immediately. They were just 2 detained at that point, and what Jane Taeger is 3 doing in this email exchange here is telling me 4 what happened, which you have. 5 Q. That some of the, that the coins 6 initially were not detained is what she's telling 7 you? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You said there was a repeated effort. 10 What was the repeated effort? 11 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to object. He can 12 answer to the extent that he has an understanding 13 from Jane, but he wasn't there. 14 MS. FARBER: Okay. 15 BY MS. FARBER: 16 Q. What did you mean when you said the 17 phrase, repeated effort? What were you referring 18 to? 19 A. Well, I could -- I'm looking for the 20 exact words, but I know her exact, almost her exact 21 words were that they, that it took five times, five 22 tries, five tries to have them detained. 23 Q. Do you know what the "tries" entailed? 24 A. Well, no. I mean, I don't know the 25 process. I don't know what the Customs rep -- I'm Page 115 1 not even sure of the correct term, what Shapiro & 2 Company, you know, is called. Customs could tell 3 me that. 4 You know, it's the person that you hire 5 to process your, your material through Customs. 6 It's not an agent. A Customs agent works for the 7 Government, but it's a Customs representative or 8 something. 9 Q. Like a broker? 10 MR. TOMPA: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: Broker. Thank you. That's 12 the word I was, I needed. The Customs broker, you 13 know, is hired to process those things, and how 14 they do that, I don't have any inside information 15 at all. I have no idea. 16 All I know is that she wrote to me, the 17 company that we hired to do that, and said that it 18 took five passes through Customs. How they passed 19 it through I couldn't tell you. 20 BY MS. FARBER: 21 Q. And so the Guild received notification 22 that the coins were detained? 23 A. Yes. 24 MS. FARBER: Let's mark this as Exhibit 25 11. Page 116 1 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 2 Number 11, Bates Numbered Documents USA 11 to USA 3 12, marked for identification and attached to the 4 transcript.) 5 BY MS. FARBER: 6 Q. So the document that's marked Exhibit 11 7 is Bates numbered USA 11 to USA 12. Referring you 8 to USA 12, which is the second page of this 9 document; do you recognize this? 10 A. Yes, I do. This is a letter that Peter 11 sent to me, Peter Tompa sent to me, a copy of. He 12 said -- this is a letter that Peter Tompa sent to 13 Customs, and I did receive a copy of this letter; 14 yes. 15 Q. This is a letter objecting formally to 16 the detention of the coins? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When I say the coins, you understand -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- I'm referring to the Defendant 21 property, the coins that were shipped that are the 22 subject of this case? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. The Guild is not making a claim that 25 Customs improperly detained the coins; is that Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 30 of 61 30 (Pages 117 to 120) Page 117 1 right? 2 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to object to the 3 extent that that sort of asks him to make a legal 4 or respond to a legal conclusion, which is -- you 5 know, detention is a term of art, I think, in the 6 Customs world, and he may not understand the 7 ramifications of that, so he can answer, you know, 8 based upon his understanding. 9 MS. FARBER: Sure. 10 BY MS. FARBER: 11 Q. You can answer. 12 A. I'm sorry, but my -- 13 Q. You got lost there? 14 A. My mind wanders, and I get lost in 15 listening to the next trans-, transfer of 16 information. 17 Q. Sure. 18 A. So would you repeat? 19 Q. Sure. I might, I might ask a slightly 20 different question. To your knowledge, was there 21 any irregularity on your end that you could see 22 regarding the detention of the coins? 23 A. It's irregular that it takes five days. 24 Q. But the fact that the coins were 25 detained, you agree that they should have been Page 118 1 detained, right? 2 A. That's what we asked for, and, yes, I 3 agree. 4 Q. And after the point that the coins were 5 detained, did you have any problems with the 6 notifications that you received from Customs? 7 MR. TOMPA: I object. 8 THE WITNESS: I -- 9 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to object to the 10 extent that it's ambiguous. 11 MS. FARBER: Sure. 12 MR. TOMPA: You can answer to the extent 13 if you understand what the question is. 14 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm, I'm trying to 15 re, recreate in my mind all of the paperwork. You 16 know, we have a, we have a considerable flow of 17 information here. You've seen it. I am really 18 having a hard time trying to recall the, the 19 notifications that I received from Customs. 20 BY MS. FARBER: 21 Q. Who would have received notifications 22 from Customs as far as these coins are concerned? 23 A. Well, that's a good question. I don't 24 know what the process for that is, and I'm not sure 25 if those notifications went to, to Mr. Tompa as our Page 119 1 attorney or if those notifications went to Shapiro. 2 Q. Okay. But you would not have been 3 involved in the process of -- 4 A. Well, I wasn't involved directly with the 5 Customs agent, no. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. I was only involved with Shapiro, and my 8 involvement with Shapiro pretty much ended -- other 9 than paying the bill, it pretty much ended after 10 the coins were detained. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. So I don't really know what the process 13 was after that. Now, I'm -- I probably did receive 14 some copies of notifications, but I don't -- they 15 don't come to memory at the moment. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. I mean, if I had them, I would have, you 18 know, I would have given them to you. 19 Q. Well, let me show you one, and you tell 20 me if this looks familiar. 21 MS. FARBER: Let's mark this as Exhibit 22 12. 23 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 24 Number 12, Bates Numbered Document USA 53, marked 25 for identification and attached to the transcript.) Page 120 1 THE WITNESS: This is -- I know what this 2 is. I don't know if I personally received this or 3 not. 4 BY MS. FARBER: 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. I may have -- 7 Q. So -- 8 A. -- but I don't recall it. But I do 9 understand it. 10 Q. So, for the record, the document that's 11 been marked as Exhibit 12 is USA 25, and this is a 12 document titled, Notice of Detention Amended, May 13 15th, 2009; is that right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So you are not -- you're not sure if you 16 ever received this document during the course of 17 the detention? 18 A. Well, I'm sure that the ACCG received it. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. I'm not sure if I personally -- I must 21 have, because I was in this loop and in this 22 process, so I will have to say I, it is very likely 23 that I have, I was aware of this at this time, and 24 I understand the purpose of it, and I -- and we 25 would have certainly wanted this. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 31 of 61 31 (Pages 121 to 124) Page 121 1 Q. What do you understand the purpose of it 2 to be? 3 A. It's that they're asking for the, for us 4 to satisfy what, what Customs has believed to be 5 the -- well, it's the Customs rule, is that the way 6 to, the way to legally process this is to produce 7 the certification that the coin was exported from 8 country A or whatever, you know, and, and Customs 9 is asking us to produce that, and, and we're saying 10 that we can't produce it. 11 In our response, I'm sure -- you must 12 have the response. Our response was that we can't 13 produce that, which is our whole contention of the 14 whole court case. 15 Q. I understand. 16 A. That's the reason we can't produce it. 17 Q. So the -- to go back to the Notice of 18 Detention and the administrative aspect of the 19 detention, it sounds like that's, you wouldn't have 20 been involved in the administrative aspect of the 21 detention insofar as you weren't handling notices 22 received from Customs; is that right? 23 A. Not directly. 24 Q. And you were not directly involved 25 in -- strike that. Okay. That answers my Page 122 1 question. 2 MS. FARBER: I would like to mark this as 3 Exhibit 13. 4 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 5 Number 13, Bates Numbered Document USA 33 to USA 6 34, marked for identification and attached to the 7 transcript.) 8 BY MS. FARBER: 9 Q. Exhibit 13 is Bates marked USA 33 to USA 10 34. 11 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to, I think, object 12 just to the extent I think it's missing -- if you 13 intend to have this Guidance to Exporters of 14 Antiquities, I think there's another page to this. 15 MS. FARBER: Okay. 16 MR. TOMPA: I think it goes on to 35, so 17 with that objection. 18 MS. FARBER: Noted. 19 BY MS. FARBER: 20 Q. Mr. Sayles, do you -- looking at USA 33, 21 do you recognize this document? 22 A. Yes. I have seen -- I have a copy of it 23 probably. 24 Q. What is it? 25 A. Not probably. I'm sure I have a copy of Page 123 1 it. 2 Q. What is it? 3 A. Well, this is Mr. Tompas' response to the 4 letter from Mr. Alexander that we were just talking 5 about, I believe. 6 Q. This is the, this is the response you 7 referenced earlier in which Peter Tompa, on behalf 8 of the Guild, says that no certification or 9 evidence under 19 CFR 12.104c is possible? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. And do you agree that the Guild is unable 12 to provide requested certification or evidence in 13 accordance with 19 CFR 12.104c? 14 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to object on two 15 grounds. I think you're asking for a legal 16 conclusion, and, secondly, I think there's been 17 responses to this in our discovery. 18 Mr. Sayles, you know, is not a lawyer, 19 and, you know, looked at the discovery, but 20 not -- but, you know, that's, the discovery 21 responses, but formulating a legal objection is 22 really an issue for lawyers, not for clients. 23 MS. FARBER: Okay. In light of that, 24 I'll rephrase my question. 25 BY MS. FARBER: Page 124 1 Q. Did you have any personal understanding 2 of whether the Guild could produce certification or 3 evidence in accordance with 19 CFR 12.104c? 4 A. The Guild was facing the same issue that 5 every collector would face, and that is that those 6 certifications can't be produced because they don't 7 exist, because there is no provenance, there is no 8 way to, to ascertain that that coin was exported, 9 ever exported legally from the Country, because it 10 was never exported from the Country. There was -- 11 it's a -- it's an impossibility. 12 Q. So you would agree that the Guild cannot 13 produce a certificate or other documentation issued 14 by the Government of the country of origin of the 15 coins? 16 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to object to the 17 extent that there's an ambiguity as to what country 18 of origin means. 19 BY MS. FARBER: 20 Q. And I think, I think we've already 21 covered this. I think you've answered the question 22 in general. I don't think we need to go through 23 each aspect of this statute. 24 MS. FARBER: Let's strike that last 25 sentence or two. I'm marking this as Exhibit 14. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 32 of 61 32 (Pages 125 to 128) Page 125 1 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 2 Number 14, Bates Numbered Documents USA 37 through 3 USA 43, marked for identification and attached to 4 the transcript.) 5 BY MS. FARBER: 6 Q. I have handed you a document marked 7 Exhibit 14. This is Bates numbered USA 37 to USA 8 43, and it's dated August 26th, 2009. Do you 9 recognize this document? 10 A. Vaguely, yes. I mean, I -- yes, I do. 11 Q. Did you ever receive a copy of this 12 document? 13 A. I'm sure I did. 14 Q. What does the document appear to be? 15 A. It's a notice that the coins were, were 16 seized. 17 Q. Directing your attention to the last 18 paragraph on the first page, so page 37 of Exhibit 19 14, this letter, which is signed by Paula Rigby of 20 U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Fines, 21 Penalties & Forfeitures, says that, In the past, 22 U.S. Customs and Border Protection will detain 23 cultural property for 90 days to provide the 24 importer with the opportunity to produce a valid 25 export certificate or other evidence establishing Page 126 1 the existence of a regulatory exception. 2 A. Sorry. 3 Q. I'm sorry. We're on page 37, which is 4 the first page. 5 A. Oh. Oh, I thought you said the last 6 sentence, so I was looking at the last page. 7 Q. I apologize. It's the last paragraph of 8 the first page. 9 A. Okay. This page. 10 Q. Yes? 11 A. In the past; yes. 12 Q. Okay. In this case, however, in your 13 correspondence dated May 27, 2009, you have 14 specifically disclaimed the existence of any such 15 certificate or evidence. Therefore, it is 16 unnecessary to wait the full 90 days for issuance 17 of a seizure notice. This notice of seizure for 18 the 22 coins listed above; do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. The Guild doesn't take any issue with 21 the, with U.S. Customs and Border Protection 22 seizing the coins prior to 90 days; is that right? 23 A. That's, that's a legal issue. I really 24 don't have a position on that. 25 Q. Okay. As far as you know, you have Page 127 1 no -- as far as your -- in your personal knowledge, 2 you have no dispute with Customs regarding the 3 timing of the detention or seizure of these coins? 4 A. The only dispute I have with Customs 5 about the seizure and detention was the speed of 6 the process and not that it was too fast, that it 7 was too slow. 8 Q. What do you mean too slow? 9 A. Well, the process took far longer than, 10 you know, to -- the conclusion should have been the 11 seizure and then the processing of the follow-up 12 forfeiture action. We waited -- to my memory, 13 recollection, we waited over a year for that to 14 happen. 15 Q. Okay. So when you talk about the process 16 being too slow, you're talking about the time that 17 it took Customs to institute a forfeiture action 18 following the seizure of the coins; am I 19 understanding that correctly? 20 A. I'm not sure about the actual seizure of 21 the coins and the timing of that, but, yes, but, 22 yes, you understood me correctly. 23 Q. Okay. Just a couple more documents to go 24 through. 25 MS. FARBER: Let's mark this as Exhibit Page 128 1 15. 2 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 3 Number 15, Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 44 through 4 ACCG 47, marked for identification and attached to 5 the transcript.) 6 BY MS. FARBER: 7 Q. The document I have handed to you that's 8 been marked as Exhibit 15 is ACCG 44 to 46. 9 A. Um-hum. 10 Q. Do you recognize this? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. Now, looking at ACCG 46, this is an email 13 from you to Paul Dawson, cc:ing Peter Tompa -- 14 A. Um-hum. 15 Q. -- dated April 2nd, 2009? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Is it fair to say that in this email 18 you're discussing the valuation of the coins? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You state, Actual value attached means 21 nothing in this case because the objects are all 22 very low value to begin with? 23 A. Well, yes, but that's a little out of 24 context. I mean -- 25 Q. In -- Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 33 of 61 33 (Pages 129 to 132) Page 129 1 A. I mean, the value of the coins mean that 2 we could use coins of a little more, you know, a 3 little pricier or we could use coins that were 4 worth less. That value is not important, but the 5 valuation of the coins should be as accurate as we 6 could make it for Customs. 7 Q. And I'll point out that I, on page 45 of 8 this same document, you and Peter have an exchange 9 regarding fair market value being the criteria for 10 valuation? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I'm not trying to misdirect you. I know 13 that's in there. So looking back at 46, you, you 14 write, If you would determine the costs and any 15 charges for the coins provided by Spink and somehow 16 apportion that to include the coins from Canada, I 17 would very much appreciate it. 18 A. Um-hum. 19 Q. What did you mean by that? 20 A. I meant that I expected to get a bill 21 from him, you know, an invoice that I would pay and 22 that he was really asked -- he really wanted to 23 know how to value the coins, and I said, you know, 24 basically, he should, he should do that. He should 25 apportion that, if he can. Page 130 1 Q. And in the apportionment, you suggested 2 that he include charges, costs and charges? 3 A. Yes, but for all of the coins. Not just, 4 not just for the coins that he located in London, 5 but also for the group that were sent to him from 6 Robert. 7 Q. What would be included in costs and 8 charges? 9 A. Whatever it takes to process a coin. The 10 time it takes. There's -- besides invoicing, you 11 know, there's identification, packaging and a 12 variety of things, and, and there's markup. I 13 mean, you expect -- it's a dealership, you know. 14 You would expect that they're going to apply some 15 markup to items that they handle. I think that's, 16 I think that's fair, you know, fair business 17 practice. 18 Q. You note, All of the coins from Canada 19 combined are probably not worth more than $25. Did 20 I read that correctly? 21 A. You read that correctly, and 22 that's -- that number was based on what Robert had, 23 Robert Kokotailo had sent to us, but, again, as I 24 explained earlier, that, that number is so vague, 25 because what $25 meant to Robert Kokotailo at that Page 131 1 moment is, could mean almost anything, and I 2 would -- it didn't mean that much to me because the 3 value of the coins was not the primary factor here, 4 and so I didn't, I didn't concern myself with it at 5 the time. 6 Q. It was, it was less important to you that 7 the value of the coins be accurately -- 8 A. No. 9 Q. -- listed? 10 A. I didn't say that. It is important to me 11 that the value of the coins be accurate, but we're 12 talking about a group of coins, that is 23 coins, 13 and what are the 23 coins worth, not what is one 14 coin worth or what are five coins worth. It's the 15 value of the group. 16 That group then is divided out, granted, 17 onto one document. That was sort of an 18 apportionment. That was the kind of apportionment 19 that I guess I'm referring to here, is that some 20 coins are worth more than others, and I tried to 21 indicate, to the best of my ability, which coins 22 were worth more than others. But that was done in 23 a good-faith effort to try and give Customs a value 24 judgment of how to take this group. 25 Overall the group is worth $275. How Page 132 1 much is each one of them worth? Well, you have to 2 divide it out, and that's apportionment. I mean, 3 it's, it's subjective, but the total is not all 4 that subjective. 5 I did ask a couple other dealers at the 6 time, I believe. I don't remember if I showed some 7 pictures to people and said, you know, is this 8 $275? Yeah, that sounds about right. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. That's not very scientific, but that's 11 pretty much how we came to that. 12 Q. So when you valued the coins, you came up 13 with a value for the entire lot; is that right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And the value that you came up with for 16 all 23 coins was $275? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And then how did you come up with that 19 number? 20 A. Well, when you've sold enough coins over 21 50 years, you get a grasp. You know, when you're 22 buying coins and you go into a coin show and 23 there's a box full of coins, you look at the box. 24 You don't have identifications of those coins. You 25 don't have grades of those coins. You don't have Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 34 of 61 34 (Pages 133 to 136) Page 133 1 any write-up of what those coins are, but if you're 2 going to be in business very long, you can look at 3 that box and you can say, Well, that's a $300 box, 4 you know, or you can say, It's worth $100 or, It's 5 not worth anything. 6 So it's a subjective determination based 7 on a long time in the business, and I have bought a 8 lot of coins through the years that way, by buying 9 them in bulk. I buy them in bulk at auction; I buy 10 them in bulk at coin shows. 11 Q. So when you -- when you're looking at a 12 lot of coins -- would it be fair to call these 23 a 13 lot? Would that be the term? 14 A. Well, that's what I did do. 15 Q. So when you're looking at a lot of coins, 16 can you shed some light on the mental process of 17 how do you value the coins as a group without 18 valuing each individual coin in the group? 19 A. Well, I can shed some light on how I 20 would do that, and I think that I'm not an 21 exception within the coin business. 22 What I look for in any group are coins 23 that are worth more, more than the average, and 24 those coins I assign a value to immediately in my 25 mind, and you can run this up pretty quickly in Page 134 1 your mind. 2 So I can see what the lowest possible 3 price is for that group, what it should be more or 4 less, and then look at the other coins that are 5 worth so much, $5 a coin, $10 a coin as a group or 6 if they're worth nothing, and you just discount 7 them completely. 8 But as you're doing this with a group of 9 23 coins, it doesn't take very long because 23 is 10 not a big number. So it didn't take very long for 11 me to look at that group and say, It's a $275 12 group, because there are two coins in there that 13 have the potential to be worth more than, you know, 14 than the $5 coins. 15 Now, they're not worth -- none of the 16 coins in that group have the potential to be rare, 17 expensive coins, but there are some coins that are 18 more attractive to collectors in any grade, high or 19 low, because they're just attractive, more 20 attractive coins; coins of Augustus, for example. 21 If you look at my list, you'll see some 22 coins are worth $40 in that list, and those are the 23 coins that are worth more than the ones that are 24 valued less, so it's purely subjective. I look at 25 it, and I say, This is how much I think the whole Page 135 1 group is worth, and that's how I come to it. 2 Now, if you think you can get more, then 3 you'll go sell them for more, but that's the way it 4 works. 5 Q. Okay. How did you determine the fair 6 market value of the 23 coins? 7 A. The same way I've just described. 8 Q. The same process? 9 A. (Nodding head, Yes.) 10 Q. So there are -- the process of 11 determining fair market value was no different than 12 the process of determining the costs and charges 13 for the coins and apportioning that to include the 14 coins from China from Canada, the same process? 15 A. Well, it was, because the criteria in my 16 mind for importation is fair market value. Customs 17 wants to know, you know, what did the coin invoice 18 for and what are we going to invoice it for? Well, 19 fair market value is the, is the accepted criteria. 20 Now, I could have done a wholesale list and come up 21 with a different number, but -- 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. -- but, you know, I was trying, I was 24 trying to establish an accurate number that Customs 25 could, indeed, verify if they needed to. Page 136 1 Q. So in your email on April 2nd, 2009, 2 which is on ACCG 46, Exhibit 15 -- 3 A. Um-hum. 4 Q. -- you are thinking of fair market value 5 in describing valuation in this email; is that 6 correct? 7 A. I didn't understand the question. 8 Q. Sure. So in this email -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- on page 46, Exhibit 15 -- 11 A. Got it. 12 Q. -- you talk about valuing the coins; is 13 that right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you talk about valuing the coins by 16 determining the costs and any charges for the coins 17 provided by Spink and somehow apportioning that to 18 include the coins from Canada? 19 A. Well, that's what I initially suggested 20 to Paul Dawson -- 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. -- but Paul Dawson didn't want to, didn't 23 want to place the valuation because he was afraid 24 that he might not place a valuation that would be 25 supported in Customs for whatever reason, for the Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 35 of 61 35 (Pages 137 to 140) Page 137 1 very reasons you're asking me the question, okay. 2 So -- at least I think you are. So that's how I 3 became involved in the process of valuing the 4 coins. 5 Basically, it was at the request of Paul 6 Dawson, to help him, and I based that on just what 7 I told you before. 8 Q. So I think -- 9 A. Does that answer it? 10 Q. It does. I think what you -- we were 11 talking about how you would value a lot of coins by 12 looking at all of the coins and deciding what the 13 value is for the whole lot and then -- 14 A. Sorting it out. 15 Q. -- maybe breaking it down. Some coins 16 are worth more; some are worth less -- 17 A. Right. Right. 18 Q. -- with that lot value -- 19 A. Right. 20 Q. -- as the, it's all going to add up to 21 this number? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. And I think you said that that process of 24 looking at the lot, coming up with the cumulative 25 value and then breaking it down is equivalent to Page 138 1 finding the fair market value for the coins, or am 2 I misunderstanding you? 3 A. Well, it is equivalent sort of, but here 4 keep in mind that we're talking about a small group 5 of inexpensive coins. 6 Now, the valuations on a large group of 7 expensive coins would be more significant, more 8 effort put into determining the actual market 9 value, more time spent on it. We were talking 10 about a small group. 11 Q. Understood. Thank you. Okay. So the 12 process you had been -- the process you described 13 on April 2nd, 2009 on page 46, the process of 14 determining costs and charges for, for the coins 15 provided by Spink -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- and somehow apportioning that to 18 include the coins from Canada -- 19 A. Right. 20 Q. -- is that a different process than the 21 fair market value process we were just describing 22 where you look at the lot, you come up with an 23 overall, overall value for the lot and then you 24 apportion that among the coins? Are those 25 different process or the same process? Page 139 1 A. Well, I think it's the same process. I 2 had pictures of 23 coins in front of me, and I 3 needed to give Paul Dawson a number that, that 4 would be acceptable to Customs, and I did that as 5 fairly and honestly as I could. 6 Now, most of the time when we have a 7 problem with valuations in Customs it's because 8 people undervalue things. This is the first time 9 I've ever run into a case where someone was curious 10 about why it was over-valued. It's not over-valued 11 in my opinion, but -- 12 Q. I don't know that I'm saying it's 13 under-valued or over-valued. I'm just trying to 14 understand the process. 15 A. Well, the process -- I think the process 16 I've described to you is pretty much the process 17 that you would use for any group, and I don't think 18 I'm the only one who does it that way. 19 MS. FARBER: Mark this as Exhibit 16, 20 please. 21 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 22 Number 16, Bates Numbered Documents ACCG 23 to ACCG 23 24, marked for identification and attached to the 24 transcript.) 25 BY MS. FARBER: Page 140 1 Q. So Exhibit 16 is Bates stamped ACCG 23 to 2 24. What is this document? 3 A. Well, this is an email from Paul Dawson 4 asking me what to put on there as far as values on 5 the invoice, and that's -- this is the precursor, I 6 assume, to the email that we were just talking 7 about that listed the -- not just. I will have to 8 go back. 9 Q. So this one comes after that email? 10 A. I believe the email that had the, had the 11 coins priced by individual coin, I don't remember 12 which number that was now. That's what I'm looking 13 for. One of the exhibits we have here gives, gives 14 an invoice with individual values on it. Here it 15 is right here. It's ACCG 63. 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. Yes. Now, this, this email that you 18 just -- this number ACCG 23, which is your Exhibit 19 16, would have preceded ACCG 63. That -- that's 20 what, the reason that I came up with these numbers. 21 Q. So it doesn't, actually. 22 MR. TOMPA: Yeah. 23 THE WITNESS: It doesn't? 24 BY MS. FARBER: 25 Q. Yeah. So take a look at the first -- if Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 36 of 61 36 (Pages 141 to 144) Page 141 1 you look at Exhibit 9, which is the invoice 2 that -- that's the schedule of contents you have in 3 your hand. So if you turn to the first page of 4 that document, it has a date on it -- 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. -- do you see that? What's the date on 7 there? 8 A. Okay. July 4th. 9 MR. TOMPA: Actually -- 10 THE WITNESS: 2009. 11 MR. TOMPA: -- that -- can I make -- this 12 is kind of an objection. 13 MS. FARBER: Oh. 14 MR. TOMPA: In England, they use a 15 different format of dates, so -- 16 MS. FARBER: Oh, yes. 17 MR. TOMPA: -- I believe it's April 7th, 18 2009. 19 MS. FARBER: That's right. 20 MR. TOMPA: It's not July 4th, 2009. 21 MS. FARBER: Yes. That's correct. This 22 is the invoice that accompanied the shipment that 23 was detained in Baltimore in April, and that's a 24 correct observation about the date, Peter. 25 THE WITNESS: Right. Page 142 1 BY MS. FARBER: 2 Q. So the invoice and the schedule of 3 contents breaking out the, breaking out the prices, 4 that preceded this, that preceded Exhibit 16, ACCG 5 23 and 24. So at the -- 6 A. Well, this -- 7 Q. It's not dated -- 8 A. There is a disconnect here somehow. This 9 can't be. It must apply to something else. I 10 don't know what. 11 Q. Take a look at the bottom of, at the 12 bottom of page 23 -- 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- there's an email dated October 16, 15 2009 -- 16 A. Right. 17 Q. -- and it is an email from Martin 18 Fuller -- 19 A. Um-hum. 20 Q. -- right? You have to turn the page. 21 A. I got it. 22 MR. TOMPA: It starts here (indicating). 23 THE WITNESS: I'm beginning to get the 24 picture here. 25 BY MS. FARBER: Page 143 1 Q. So he, Martin Fuller, notes in his email 2 on 23 and 24, I have been retained by the U.S. 3 Customs and Border Protection division of Homeland 4 Security to assess the current values of the items 5 pictured in the attached imagines which are, those 6 are the Defendant property? 7 A. Right. Okay. I understand now exactly 8 what's going on here. 9 Q. Okay. What is that? 10 A. This is after the coins were already 11 detained and seized that Paul Dawson was contacted 12 by Fuller to, to find out what the values were 13 because Fuller didn't know how to value the coins, 14 and, and Paul Dawson had apparently forgotten or, 15 for whatever reason, he didn't have that invoice in 16 front of him to tell Fuller what the invoice value 17 was. 18 I suspect that Fuller probably had the 19 invoice himself, but I don't know what else he was 20 looking for besides that. But this is, this is not 21 related to something before the fact. 22 I probably would have gotten something 23 like this from Paul Dawson before we ever, you 24 know, put the coin package together, I mean, before 25 we had it shipped. After we put it together, Page 144 1 before we shipped it, because there was -- in that 2 period, there was some correspondence, and we were 3 trying to figure out what to put on the invoice, 4 and you have copies of that. 5 I thought this was a part of that, but 6 obviously, then the dates don't coincide, and I 7 could see that it wasn't. Now I understand this is 8 about Fuller. It's not about, not about our 9 shipment. 10 Q. Right. Is it -- why is he asking -- why 11 is Paul Dawson asking you what to put as the values 12 for the coins? 13 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to object to the 14 extent you're asking him to get into the head of 15 Paul Dawson. 16 BY MS. FARBER: 17 Q. As far as you can tell, why would 18 Paul -- 19 A. As far as I can tell, I have no idea. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. I don't -- this is, this is a surprise to 22 me. I don't know. Obviously, he sent it to me, 23 but I can't tell you -- there's nothing for me to 24 reply with. We have already established the 25 values, so there's no possible reply, other than Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 37 of 61 37 (Pages 145 to 148) Page 145 1 the value is what we stated. 2 Q. And you were the one who established the 3 value for the coins? 4 A. Yes. Yes. 5 Q. Is it common for, I guess, the purchaser 6 of coins to establish their value? Is that just -- 7 A. No. 8 Q. It's not common? 9 A. Well, that would be nice if you could. 10 Q. Okay. Why did it happen in this case or 11 in this situation, I should say, that the purchaser 12 established the value of the coins? 13 A. Well, I don't know what the, what the 14 actual value of the coins was that Paul Dawson and 15 Spink came up with, but it didn't matter what that, 16 what that cost was. 17 What mattered was the value for the 18 importation, and that's what I'm directed by 19 Customs to put on, on the invoice, is the, is the 20 value of the product, the value of the material. 21 That's how I looked at it, at least, and how Paul 22 Dawson looked at it, I'm not sure. 23 But Paul Dawson, not being a lawyer or 24 familiar with U.S. Customs, probably was just 25 wondering what to do about this, because he was Page 146 1 being queried by someone working for Customs. 2 Q. In a typical sale of coins, the seller of 3 the coins would be the one to establish the value 4 for Customs; is that right? 5 A. Well, in, in the typical situation, that 6 value is not established normally because that 7 value is already part of the process. I mean, you 8 pay for the coin. You buy a coin. You pay for it. 9 The purchase price is the, you know, the fair 10 market value in that particular case, in that 11 incident, in that event, and so then that coin is 12 shipped into the United States and passes through 13 Customs with a purchase invoice. That's what we 14 have here, a purchase invoice. 15 The only question was, What do we put on 16 the invoice? And Dawson was willing to give us the 17 coins, but we didn't -- we couldn't just take the 18 coins as a gift. We wanted to have established 19 ownership of the coins, which was by purchase. 20 So what was the purchase price? It was 21 whatever Paul Dawson and I could agree on, and Paul 22 Dawson was agreeable to the price that I set on 23 those, which I did, and that was based on fair 24 market value. So we tried to keep everything as 25 legal and straightforward and transparent as Page 147 1 possible. 2 Q. Okay. The Ancient Coin Collectors Guild 3 paid Spink the $275 as listed on the invoice for 4 the coins? 5 A. Correct. 6 MS. FARBER: Let's mark this as Exhibit 7 17. 8 (Whereupon, Sayles Deposition Exhibit 9 Number 17, Bates Numbered Document ACCG 31, marked 10 for identification and attached to the transcript.) 11 BY MS. FARBER: 12 Q. So the document marked Exhibit 17 is 13 Bates numbered ACCG 31. Do you recognize it? 14 A. Oh, yes. I'm sorry. 15 Q. What is it? 16 A. This is a letter that I sent to Paul 17 Dawson with a check. 18 Q. And in this letter you say, If you wish 19 to donate a like amount to the ACCG Museum Fund for 20 support of provincial museums in England and Wales, 21 you may simply endorse the check on the reverse by 22 writing pay to ACCG Museum Fund and signing below 23 the statement. Do you see that? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. What was the intention behind -- Page 148 1 A. Well, he wanted -- 2 Q. -- that? 3 A. Well, as I said earlier, he wanted to 4 donate the coins, and we wanted to establish 5 ownership, and so it was necessary for us to have 6 an exchange, you know, a financial exchange to 7 establish the ownership. 8 Now, what he does with the money that we 9 sent to him, it's up to him. He can put it in 10 Spink's account, or if he wants to donate to that 11 account, he can do that. It's up to him. 12 Q. So this letter, Exhibit 17, ACCG 31 -- 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. -- was intended to allow Paul Dawson to 15 donate the coins by suggesting a way that he 16 could -- 17 A. No. No. I'm sorry. Well, I'm sorry. 18 Finish. 19 Q. By suggesting a way that Mr. Dawson could 20 donate the money that the Guild paid him towards 21 the Guild so that the transaction was a donation 22 essentially? 23 MR. TOMPA: I'm going to object because I 24 think that's putting words in his mouth, but he can 25 respond. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 38 of 61 38 (Pages 149 to 152) Page 149 1 BY MS. FARBER: 2 Q. Go ahead. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. Do I answer or don't 4 answer? 5 MR. TOMPA: No, you can answer. 6 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. There are two 7 separate transactions here. 8 BY MS. FARBER: 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. One is a purchase transaction, and the 11 other is a donation. It actually went to two 12 different places. One came from the ACCG; the 13 other one went to a separate account, a different, 14 a different checking account that was established 15 solely for the support of the museums in, mostly in 16 Britain,and. And it was managed -- that account 17 was managed by a committee of the ACCG, but it 18 really was -- they were separate from me as far as 19 decision-making and such. 20 So as I looked at it, it was just 21 expediency for him. Rather than go through the 22 process of cashing the check in U.S. dollars, 23 putting it in the bank and, you know, going back 24 and forth, it was just easier to allow him to do 25 that, if he chose to. Page 150 1 I don't really know, to tell you the 2 truth, if he did that or not. I know that we got 3 the $275 back, and it was deposited. We have a 4 record of that. 5 Unfortunately, the bank didn't make a 6 copy of the check. You know, they didn't show us a 7 picture of it, so I can't tell if that check was 8 returned with a, with a countersigned, you know, or 9 if there was a different check from Spink that 10 came. I couldn't say. 11 Q. I understand. I'm trying to get at your 12 meaning or your intention when you said, If you 13 wish to donate a like amount to the ACCG Museum 14 Fund. 15 A. That was -- 16 Q. So what did you, what did you intend when 17 you suggested that? 18 A. I answered his question. He said, I 19 won't send you an invoice. And I said, Well, we 20 have to have an invoice, and we have to have a fair 21 market value invoice. And that's how this whole 22 discussion that you're trying to sort out, and I 23 can understand why you're trying to sort it out, 24 because, you know, the whole thing was a little 25 confusing from the start. Page 151 1 We were just trying to follow the law, do 2 what we needed to do to establish the position from 3 which we could contest a seizure. 4 Q. I understand. I think what I'm trying to 5 get at is that the point of this letter was 6 that -- and, you know, disagree with me if I'm 7 misstating this, as I know that you will. 8 Mr. Dawson initially wanted to donate the 9 coins -- 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. -- to the Guild -- 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- but you wanted to pay for the coins -- 14 A. Right. 15 Q. -- to establish ownership for your case? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So this letter was a way of 18 effectively -- and, you know, I'm not talking about 19 for legal purposes or standing or anything like 20 that, but between the two of you, this was a way 21 for it to be somewhat of a donation. You were 22 paying the $275 for the coins -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- and then Mr. Dawson could donate the 25 same amount back to the Guild, but in a different Page 152 1 capacity, a different fund? 2 A. I think this is little bit -- I would 3 present that a little bit differently. 4 This is a way to tell Paul Dawson how to 5 process his payment. Now, he could just as easily 6 have put the money in the bank. It didn't matter 7 to me a bit. He preferred not to. 8 So we said, Well, you know, this was the 9 answer. If he want to take the same check and 10 endorse it to the museum fund, which is a separate 11 bank account, then, you know, you can do that, if 12 you want to. 13 Q. Because he would prefer not to keep the 14 money? He would prefer to give it back to the 15 Guild in some way or another? 16 A. Well, it's not a question of keeping the 17 money or not. It's a question of whether he wants 18 to donate $275 to the Guild. Like I said, that's 19 two totally separate issues. One is that we paid 20 for the coins; the other is that he donates the 21 money. 22 Q. And you said initially he did not want to 23 accept any payment for the coins? 24 A. That's true. 25 Q. Okay. That makes sense. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 39 of 61 39 (Pages 153 to 155) Page 153 1 MS. FARBER: Okay. Let's take a 2 five-minute break. 3 MR. TOMPA: Sure. Do you want to look 4 and see what you have? 5 MS. FARBER: Yes. 6 (Recess taken -- 1:26 p.m.) 7 (After recess -- 1:34 p.m.) 8 MS. FARBER: I don't have any further 9 questions for you. 10 THE WITNESS: That's even a better sign. 11 MR. TOMPA: I have no questions. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I hoped I 13 answered your questions the way you needed. 14 MS. FARBER: This was very helpful, and I 15 appreciate you taking the time. I know it took a 16 long time to fly from Missouri and that you had to 17 book and cancel several months ago, and I 18 appreciate your patience with the process. 19 THE COURT REPORTER: Did you want E-tran 20 only, or do you want paper? 21 MR. TOMPA: E-tran is fine. 22 MS. FARBER: The same. 23 (Whereupon, the deposition of Wayne 24 Sayles was concluded at 1:37 p.m., and the reading 25 and signing of the transcript was not waived.) Page 154 1 CERTIFICATE FOR READING AND SIGNING 2 3 I hereby certify that I have read and 4 examined the within transcript and the same is a 5 true and accurate record of the testimony given by 6 me. 7 Any additions or corrections that I feel 8 are necessary I have listed on the separate ERRATA 9 SHEET enclosed, indicating the page and line number 10 of each correction. 11 12 13 ______________________________ 14 WAYNE SAYLES 15 16 17 18 ______________________________ 19 DATE 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 155 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 I, Michele D. Lambie, a Shorthand 4 Reporter and a Notary Public, do hereby certify 5 that the foregoing witness, WAYNE SAYLES, was duly 6 sworn on the date indicated, and that the foregoing 7 is a true and accurate transcription of my 8 stenographic notes and is a true record of the 9 testimony given by the foregoing witness. 10 11 I further certify that I am in no way 12 interested in the outcome of this matter. 13 14 15 In witness whereof, I have hereunto set 16 my hand this 1st day of May, 2016. 17 18 19 20 ________________________________ 21 Michele D. Lambie, Notary Public 22 My Commission Expires April 28, 2020. 23 24 25 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 40 of 61 Page 156 A a.m 1:15 59:22,23 abide 7:18 ability 8:4 10:18 131:21 able 68:1 81:11 92:24 abreast 56:14 absolutely 86:9,18 88:2 academic 22:20 27:24 accept 27:15 152:23 acceptable 139:4 accepted 11:6 135:19 ACCG 4:13,14,15,16,16,17,19,21 4:22,23,23 5:6,6,7,8,9 23:22 29:18,22 31:24 32:21 33:11 53:9 53:12,21,24 55:14,19 59:8 67:10 67:14 73:1,2,6 74:25 80:14 84:12,12,17 85:8 86:24 87:1 90:8,14 91:12,15,15 92:8 93:10 93:11,17 94:6 99:19 103:9 106:9 111:23 112:22,22 120:18 128:3 128:4,8,12 136:2 139:22,22 140:1,15,18,19 142:4 147:9,13 147:19,22 148:12 149:12,17 150:13 accompanied 103:9 141:22 accompanying 111:2 account 148:10,11 149:13,14,16 152:11 accumulated 11:5 accumulating 11:4 accuracy 96:18 accurate 10:14,21 53:10 55:1 59:9 61:22,23 96:1,6,25 97:7,13,23 98:5,10,13,14,20,25 99:4,15,23 99:24 100:4,13,18,24 129:5 131:11 135:24 154:5 155:7 accurately 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149:2 Air 11:3,7 Alberta 83:11 Alexander 123:4 allow 109:9 148:14 149:24 ambiguity 124:17 ambiguous 118:10 Amended 120:12 amendments 26:21 America 1:4 51:4 American 13:17,25 14:2,7 16:10 23:19 40:8 51:5 amount 21:13 147:19 150:13 151:25 analysis 15:2 Anazarbus 16:19,21,22 19:15,16 ancient 4:8,10 12:2,15,16,25 13:8 13:9,17,19,20 14:4,14,21,24 15:17,20 17:9 20:17 22:9,16 23:2,4 25:15 30:9,16,17 31:2,5 31:19 32:3,8,12 33:7,13 34:22 35:7,9 36:2 37:6,20 38:8 43:23 49:3 50:12 51:5,22 53:7,8,11 54:2,3,15 55:2,13,17 58:16 61:15 63:11,21 64:1,6 68:18 74:13 84:2 88:9,10,12,13,19 92:11 147:2 angels 29:15,16,16 ANS 13:23 14:10 16:21 answer 7:5 8:12,25 9:2,3,10,13 22:6 24:20 27:9 47:12,17 49:1 62:9,16 102:23 109:1,10,17 114:12 117:7,11 118:12 137:9 149:3,4,5 152:9 answered 45:13 110:14 124:21 150:18 153:13 answers 7:1 8:1,22 121:25 Antiquities 122:14 anybody 62:4 anytime 52:22 anyway 23:2 33:4 79:21 apologize 10:13 126:7 apparently 67:25 107:11 110:10 111:9 143:14 appeal 27:15 44:14 45:2 46:17 48:21 appealed 45:1 46:11 appear 59:9 104:17 110:13,20 125:14 appearance 107:21 APPEARANCES 2:1 3:1 appears 59:11 appellate 45:5,8 applied 42:19 43:10 64:20 78:4 110:4 apply 11:6 76:3 130:14 142:9 applying 27:24 appointed 56:4,16 apportion 129:16,25 138:24 apportioning 135:13 136:17 138:17 apportionment 130:1 131:18,18 132:2 appreciate 129:17 153:15,18 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 41 of 61 Page 157 approach 62:6 approached 70:25 appropriate 29:22 appropriately 29:24 April 1:15 37:2,3 94:10 128:15 136:1 138:13 141:17,23 155:22 AR 78:5,12 archaeological 63:14 archaeologist 28:8 29:1,8 32:25 Archeology 22:23 25:8 archives 14:9 16:12,14 area 20:3,5,9 23:4 25:17 28:18 68:15 104:3 arguing 44:4 109:2 argument 48:16,17 arguments 48:17 armed 12:7 arranged 61:17 art 11:17,18 13:6,9,10,22 15:17 21:2 117:5 article 32:24 33:3 articles 25:10 33:2 91:10 94:9 ascertain 124:8 aside 11:24 asked 8:8 10:5 11:21 58:8 69:19 84:23 118:2 129:22 asking 8:6 36:4 41:12 44:3 47:11 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113:23 121:17 129:13 140:8 149:23 150:3 151:25 152:14 background 10:24,25 17:22 21:11 38:1 44:5 55:9 backward 88:18 Bailey 3:4 balance 46:1 Baltimore 1:18 2:9,18 45:9 68:5,9 68:15 93:5,5 112:13 113:6 141:23 Ban 97:11 108:15 bank 149:23 150:5 152:6,11 bar 11:13 Barford 29:2,4,5,21 based 63:16 64:13 102:11,13 117:8 130:22 133:6 137:6 146:23 basic 6:23 86:5 basically 29:19 33:11 36:11 37:14 37:17 38:5 41:24 129:24 137:5 basis 41:9 48:14 Bates 4:13,14,16,17,19,21,23,24 5:2,3,4,6,7,9 67:10,14 73:1,6 80:13 81:9 84:12 90:8,13 91:15 93:10,17 111:23 116:2,7 119:24 122:5,9 125:2,7 128:3 139:22 140:1 147:9,13 BC 95:11 96:9,21 97:4,11 98:4 108:3,8,12,16 bear 76:8 Beckman 33:1 becoming 33:4 beginning 6:24 34:6 40:16 45:11 46:24 142:23 behalf 2:2 3:3 36:15 123:7 believe 36:23 46:19 51:13,17 53:14 54:13 69:4 72:11 81:24 82:2 100:23 107:13 110:8 123:5 132:6 140:10 141:17 believed 121:4 believes 110:11 best 7:13,18 8:4 131:21 better 153:10 big 63:13 134:10 bigger 33:24 34:3,20 bill 13:4 74:2 119:9 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16:3 17:13,17 21:19 28:1 65:6,12 66:13 75:2 80:3 81:12 83:2 85:6 89:13,14 95:12 96:22 100:15 143:12 finding 69:12 71:20 83:5 138:1 fine 10:2 153:21 Fines 125:20 finish 7:11,12,13 57:2 72:1 110:24 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 47 of 61 Page 163 148:18 finished 16:2 62:9 first 4:12 6:4 7:1 9:22 12:5,18 13:12 15:10 33:5 38:18,25 39:6 40:14 41:17 47:25 53:15 54:17 60:9,12 65:2 69:4,4 80:13 93:25 94:16,16 100:25 101:2 103:8,12 104:10 125:18 126:4,8 139:8 140:25 141:3 fit 15:20 five 73:12 81:10,25 82:4,10,12,14 82:17 85:10 114:21,21,22 115:18 117:23 131:14 five-minute 103:2 153:2 flag 37:17,20,21,25 38:3,5 flea 21:19 Floor 1:18 2:8 flow 118:16 fly 153:16 focus 38:19,19 folders 101:18 follow 74:9 151:1 follow-up 127:11 follow-ups 16:2 followed 40:15 following 54:18 127:18 follows 6:6 Force 11:3,7 forces 12:8 foregoing 155:5,6,9 foreign 21:19 forfeiture 6:13 22:16 30:7 45:7 47:4,7 49:5,9 59:16 127:12,17 Forfeitures 125:21 forge 83:22 forged 19:25 21:14 forgeries 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giving 52:24 glimpse 21:17 go 9:3 11:8 13:6 17:16 21:7 22:23 26:11 37:19 52:20 53:18 57:16 59:5,20 69:11 73:25 74:4 75:5 94:15 121:17 124:22 127:23 132:22 135:3 140:8 149:2,21 goal 50:19 God 22:10 goes 15:13 26:12 61:1 122:16 going 7:12 9:10,20 14:7 15:11 33:13 36:1 42:10 46:17 47:10 49:2,6 53:14 58:22 59:13 62:8 62:16 72:4 73:21 76:16 87:14 88:17 94:16 104:1 109:9 111:5,6 112:9 113:4 114:11 117:2 118:9 122:11 123:14 124:16 130:14 133:2 135:18 137:20 143:8 144:13 148:23 149:23 gold 77:18 good 6:9,10 8:9 18:6 23:11 30:1 31:3 59:17 118:23 good-faith 131:23 Google 34:14 GOP 53:22,23 54:9,13,16 gotten 58:10 143:22 governing 65:10 85:15 Government 26:2 40:9 115:7 124:14 grade 73:12 134:18 grades 87:2 132:25 graduate 12:4 graduated 12:6 13:2 graduating 11:10 Grand 36:12 granted 131:16 grasp 132:21 great 7:8,22 8:5,15 9:6 10:23 25:6 25:10 49:22 63:4 greatly 31:1 Greece 15:11 Greek 18:3,5,9 grim 73:13,15 81:11,18 ground 6:19 33:8 grounds 123:15 group 32:5,10 82:9 101:18,20 130:5 131:12,15,16,24,25 133:17,18,22 134:3,5,8,11,12,16 135:1 138:4,6,10 139:17 groups 92:12 101:19 guarantee 63:17 guess 14:6 23:6 24:11,20 30:17 34:4 39:13,15 41:13 43:15 48:19 91:8 131:19 145:5 guessing 109:15 Guidance 122:13 guidelines 26:7 Guild 4:9,10 22:17 30:9 31:5,19 31:19 32:4,13 35:3,7,8,8,9,10,13 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 48 of 61 Page 164 36:15 37:6,12,20 38:9 42:14 43:23 46:21,22 47:3,6,7,21 48:7 49:3 50:12,14 51:8,23 53:7 55:3 57:5 58:17 61:15 69:6,11 108:1 108:6,10,14,18,22 110:11 115:21 116:24 123:8,11 124:2,4 124:12 126:20 147:2 148:20,21 151:11,25 152:15,18 Guild's 53:12 61:9 109:4,5 H H 2:5 Han 97:3,10 108:11,15 hand 35:23 38:23 89:12 141:3 155:16 handed 112:21 125:6 128:7 handing 58:20 handle 130:15 handling 121:21 hands 42:7 happen 57:17 72:10 109:22 127:14 145:10 happened 16:17 28:6,7 40:1 48:22 72:11 111:8,9 112:5 113:15 114:4 happening 22:15 42:5 hard 65:1 111:19 118:18 Harlow 91:5 he'll 8:24 head 7:4 29:6 43:21 56:4,20 57:8 98:4,23 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87:25 96:7 99:7 117:20 127:1 knows 7:16 89:10 112:10,11 Kokotailo 83:8,9 84:22 85:2,3,10 86:2,8,14,17 87:1,23 88:21 89:5 89:18,23 101:8 106:1 130:23,25 L labeled 104:9 Lambie 1:19,25 155:3,21 large 31:1,1 138:6 late 15:10 lately 25:20 law 26:6,6,7,9,12,23 27:3,3,5,11 27:12 36:6,10 40:2,4,4,12 42:18 43:8,8,10 45:24 48:13,14 71:17 76:19,21,22 151:1 laws 71:13 lawyer 39:19 41:1,3,12 47:12,13 49:25 123:18 145:23 lawyers 123:22 layers 44:9,10 layman 41:23 layman's 41:2 80:15 learn 13:7,21,22,22 15:20 learned 12:25 15:8 leave 56:25 57:4,7,15 58:8 leaving 29:8 lecture 30:3 lectures 30:6 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 50 of 61 Page 166 led 16:8 left 13:4 57:14 legal 8:20 44:5 47:1,11,15 50:18 61:2 76:17,18 80:22 108:25 117:3,4 123:15,21 126:23 146:25 151:19 legalese 43:18,19 legality 61:20 62:1 63:7,17 legally 41:3 71:17 121:6 124:9 legislation 36:4 56:9,12 legislative 51:9 legitimate 41:4 42:20,22 43:25 let's 10:23 25:13 50:2 51:19 59:20 59:25 60:8 67:7 90:5 91:11 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120:11 122:6,9 125:3,6 128:4,8 139:23 147:9,12 market 21:19 34:22 63:12 64:3,5 95:13 129:9 135:6,11,16,19 136:4 138:1,8,21 146:10,24 150:21 marking 124:25 markup 130:12,15 Martin 32:25 142:17 143:1 Maryland 1:2,18 2:9,18 Master's 11:18 14:11,19,23 match 81:12 94:8 105:11 material 21:12 46:14 55:9 115:5 145:20 materials 23:15 matter 17:15 26:4 28:18 81:17 82:22 145:15 152:6 155:12 mattered 81:19 145:17 mean 17:7 25:24 26:1 34:2,21,22 39:7,25 41:2,20,24 42:17 46:25 48:11 49:7,19,21 51:4 57:12 64:15 71:11,16 72:16 75:4,16 84:1 87:12,24 88:5 95:8 99:19 106:18 109:2 111:18 112:10 114:16,24 119:17 125:10 127:8 128:24 129:1,1,19 130:13 131:1 131:2 132:2 143:24 146:7 meaning 51:5 150:12 means 9:8 26:9 36:12 42:19 75:5,5 95:10 124:18 128:20 meant 129:20 130:25 meat 49:4 medical 16:4 medication 10:17 meet 37:17 meetings 23:22,23 26:25 37:15 member 13:16 14:10 29:18,21 54:9 55:15,21 members 32:11 37:15 54:8 membership 23:22,23 37:14 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 51 of 61 Page 167 memorabilia 29:14 Memorandums 27:2 80:25 memory 70:12,13 101:6 119:15 127:12 mental 133:16 mention 24:23 25:3 68:20 mentioned 16:10 19:15 30:3 46:23 mentions 68:17 merits 44:1 mess 28:11 met 40:5,6,10 55:17 69:18 Michele 1:19,25 155:3,21 middle 61:13 92:6 105:2 Milas 19:18,18,23 military 11:3 12:12 13:3 38:1 millimeters 98:4,8,12,18,23 million 84:5,7 mind 53:21 95:24 101:14 103:1 117:14 118:15 133:25 134:1 135:16 138:4 mine 100:20 mint 75:24 76:2 77:7 78:6,15,20 79:16 minute 50:9 minutes 26:24 mirror 19:18 mirrors 18:5 misdirect 129:12 missing 122:12 mission 38:8,11 Missouri 32:6 153:16 misstating 151:7 mistaken 46:20 misunderstanding 138:2 misunderstood 39:3 Molissa 2:5 6:11 9:18 103:1 molissa.farber@usdoj.gov 2:6 moment 38:20 119:15 131:1 money 84:1 148:8,20 152:6,14,17 152:21 month 69:2 74:7 months 38:15 45:12 153:17 monumental 63:19 morning 6:9,10 MOU 76:5,5 78:2,3,3,18 79:20 85:21,24 102:11,13 107:9,25 111:2 mouth 148:24 move 59:13 museology 15:18 museum 147:19,22 150:13 152:10 museums 147:20 149:15 N N 2:14 6:1 N-Y 72:6,7 N.W 3:7 name 6:11 16:19 20:12 28:25 31:23 33:1 named 55:10 narrow 53:20 natural 15:20 84:8 naturally 18:21 nature 64:5 83:21 86:12 87:16 near 19:16 Nebraska 11:11 necessarily 89:10 107:12 necessary 148:5 154:8 need 8:5,7 15:24 59:18 79:21 80:7 124:22 needed 56:13 76:24 115:12 135:25 139:3 151:2 153:13 needs 7:5 never 14:1 33:9 39:17,20 40:17 45:13 56:3,18,19,24 63:20 82:21 87:15 95:24 124:10 new 22:21,24 23:18 24:7,16 30:4 33:8 69:16 70:14,23 71:22 74:22 nice 145:9 night 10:16 nine 26:25 82:17 no-interrupting 7:18 nod 7:4 Nodding 29:6 43:21 135:9 non-cash 106:20 non-existent 20:3 normally 10:4 146:6 Nostradamus 33:23 Notary 1:19 155:4,21 note 109:10 130:18 Noted 112:18 122:18 notes 86:8 143:1 155:8 notice 4:7 50:3,5 52:4 58:25,25 120:12 121:17 125:15 126:17,17 notices 121:21 notification 113:10,12,13 115:21 notifications 118:6,19,21,25 119:1 119:14 notified 112:4 number 12:22 36:18 50:5 51:22 52:2,4,25 54:23 58:2,16 60:12 61:14 67:10,10,14 73:1,6 77:1,2 77:2,3 80:14 81:9 82:17,24 84:12 90:8 91:15 93:10 94:19 104:16 111:23 116:2 119:24 122:5 125:2 128:3 130:22,24 132:19 134:10 135:21,24 137:21 139:3,22 140:12,18 147:9 154:9 numbered 4:13,14,16,17,19,21,23 4:24 5:2,3,4,6,7,9 73:1 84:12 90:8,13 91:15 93:10,17 111:23 116:2,7 119:24 122:5 125:2,7 128:3 139:22 147:9,13 numbers 95:21 140:20 Numismatic 13:17,18,20,25 14:2 14:8 16:10 23:19 numismatics 30:24,25 numismatist 18:18 30:23 NY 72:6,9 74:6 75:11 O O 6:1 oath 7:22,24,25 object 47:10 49:6 58:23 104:1 109:9 112:9 114:11 117:2 118:7 118:9 122:11 123:14 124:16 144:13 148:23 objecting 116:15 objection 8:17,24 9:4 41:1 51:15 62:15 112:15 115:10 122:17 123:21 141:12 objections 8:16 objective 65:4 67:6 objectively 100:13,14 objectives 55:2 objects 8:24 51:11 128:21 obligations 99:3 observation 141:24 obtained 89:23 obvious 33:5 46:17 obviously 38:19 40:16 64:7,22 101:19 144:6,22 occasion 25:19 32:22 occasions 37:9 occurred 110:1 October 142:14 offensive 87:24 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 52 of 61 Page 168 offer 74:10,15,23 offering 18:24 74:24 offhand 68:25 Office 1:16 2:3 6:16 officer 11:12,14 officers 112:13 officials 54:10 oh 22:10,12 37:24 53:6 57:3 72:2 74:4 92:7 103:3 126:5,5 141:13 141:16 147:14 149:6 okay 6:22 9:16 10:23 11:23 15:25 19:24 25:6,13 27:22 28:1 29:13 30:2,15,20 39:4 40:7,20 42:8 52:10,18 53:14,19 57:25 58:12 59:12,15,20 60:19,21 62:18,22 65:15 66:21 68:25 72:3 73:19,23 74:11 75:21 77:2,6,23 80:5,24 81:5 82:13,18 87:1 89:23 91:1,3 92:9,11 94:15 95:7 96:17 97:22 98:3 100:2 102:8,25 103:7 104:5 104:7,14 106:4,7 107:1,4 108:1 109:4,12,24 110:6 111:4 114:14 119:2,6,11,16 120:5,19 121:25 122:15 123:23 126:9,12,25 127:15,23 132:9 135:5,22 136:21 137:1 138:11 141:8 143:7,9 144:20 145:10 147:2 149:3,6,9 152:25 153:1 old 88:12 101:3 102:17 103:13 106:14 108:24 109:7 110:13,20 Omaha 11:11 ones 82:5 101:17 105:1,17,25 134:23 ongoing 23:25 online 25:5,18,18 54:13 opining 49:25 opinion 38:14 43:22 44:17 45:21 45:22,22 48:4,16 87:6 139:11 opportune 85:23 opportunity 50:2 125:24 oppose 27:2,3 54:14 64:8 opposed 109:14 opposing 55:20 order 63:6 65:6 69:7 ordinary 77:21 organization 32:16 34:1,5 38:7 organizations 56:7 origin 65:18 124:14,18 original 55:15 82:4 originally 72:21 Originator 91:6 outcome 155:12 outlined 111:1 outside 49:14,17 80:18 over-valued 139:10,10,13 overall 131:25 138:23,23 overcome 38:12 ownership 146:19 148:5,7 151:15 P P 6:1 78:10 p.m 103:4,5 153:6,7,24 package 143:24 packaging 130:11 page 31:10,18,24 53:6,11,16 61:4 61:7,12,13 73:25 75:21 80:12,13 85:9 90:19 91:12,19 93:25,25 94:3 104:15 116:8 122:14 125:18,18 126:3,4,6,8,9 129:7 136:10 138:13 141:3 142:12,20 154:9 pages 22:25 paid 147:3 148:20 152:19 paper 22:20,24,25 153:20 papers 22:9,14,19 25:8,11,16 49:22 paperwork 118:15 paragraph 125:18 126:7 parameter 42:17 parameters 40:4,5,10,11,12 102:2 102:4,13,14,18 parenthesis 76:24 part 8:19,23 14:6,23 18:18 36:14 47:6 67:3 111:11 144:5 146:7 partial 91:23 particular 11:25 16:15 20:3 21:4 25:1 36:21 39:14 56:7 63:14 69:25 89:7,8 146:10 particularly 80:21 parts 78:23,25 pass 46:8,9 passed 54:16,19,19 65:3 113:11 113:21 115:18 passes 115:18 146:12 patience 153:18 Paul 14:22 29:2,4,5,21 69:18 70:14,23 72:21 73:10 74:1 81:6 81:6,9 82:5 83:1 91:5,7,9 101:7 101:20,21 102:7 107:22 128:13 136:20,22 137:5 139:3 140:3 143:11,14,23 144:11,15,18 145:14,21,23 146:21,21 147:16 148:14 152:4 Paula 125:19 pause 55:4 pay 19:12 87:14,16,18 129:21 146:8,8 147:22 151:13 paying 119:9 151:22 payment 152:5,23 Penalties 125:21 penchant 17:24 pending 8:12 people 7:9 12:24 14:4 20:4 26:2 28:22 37:16,17 38:7 54:23 69:16 87:18 100:10 132:7 139:8 peoples' 88:19 perceive 16:8 44:5 perfect 70:13,14 period 11:5 23:21 25:21 78:8,16 78:17,20,23,25 79:12,14,18,20 80:1,8 85:14 88:10 97:17 98:16 105:7 112:3,6 113:5 144:2 periods 72:20 person 13:12 31:23 55:9 115:4 personal 9:22 10:13 16:7 124:1 127:1 personality 28:18 personally 17:24 120:2,20 Peter 3:5 7:16 8:15,17,23 9:2 14:22 33:2 43:16 57:19,20 73:11 74:2 80:6,14 95:4 116:10,11,12 123:7 128:13 129:8 141:24 petitioned 45:2 philosophical 26:22 27:6,8,11 50:17 51:13 philosophy 25:23,24 26:5 photographs 82:11,19 92:22 photos 106:17 107:18 phrase 60:2,3 114:17 physically 92:14 picture 102:21 142:24 150:7 pictured 143:5 pictures 19:8 96:5 132:7 139:2 piece 84:3 pieces 75:22 76:1 pinpoint 21:12 pkt@becounsel.com 3:6 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 53 of 61 Page 169 place 13:7 16:16,16,20 29:16 49:23 50:16,23 53:2 61:21 62:2 64:14 68:5,9 82:24 136:23,24 places 13:22 23:18 149:12 plain 26:7 Plaintiff 1:5 2:2 6:4 Plaintiff's 4:11 60:12 104:10 Plaintiffs' 60:9 planning 9:24,25 play 24:22 please 7:15 9:9,13 139:20 plenty 89:14 PLLC 3:4 point 8:9 15:21 17:2,5 24:2,3 27:8 34:14 42:9,9,10,10,10,11,11,11 46:13,15 52:19 53:15 54:4 63:24 68:24 69:6,25 75:2 82:22 84:5 88:17 93:22 100:9 103:23 110:6 110:8 114:2 118:4 129:7 151:5 points 55:1 policy 7:18 port 68:5 position 31:7 35:17,19 36:14 40:3 48:23 50:17 51:14 54:23,24 56:1 56:3,23,24,25 57:4,6,8 109:4,5 126:24 151:2 positions 35:6,12 positive 74:20 possibility 103:20 possible 107:24 123:9 134:2 144:25 147:1 possibly 33:13 post-Tang 105:8 posts 28:14 29:9 potential 134:13,16 PowerPoint 23:12,24 24:6,10 25:2 PowerPoints 23:16,24 practically 15:3 practice 21:15 130:17 pre-AD 85:11,25 pre-Tang 105:9 preceded 140:19 142:4,4 preceding 97:23 precisely 53:20 precocious 33:14,16 34:4 precognizant 33:18,19 34:9 precursor 140:5 preeminent 14:3 prefer 152:13,14 preferably 77:7,15,24 preferred 152:7 prescient 34:8 present 152:3 presentation 23:1,13 24:6,10,25 25:2 presentations 27:17 presenting 38:6 pretty 11:23 17:10 18:4 20:2 31:3 36:19 38:14 42:2 71:15 87:16 88:18 99:11 119:8,9 132:11 133:25 139:16 previous 30:8 52:22 75:10 price 134:3 146:9,20,22 priced 140:11 prices 142:3 pricier 129:3 primary 131:3 prime 81:20 83:24 printout 53:10 prior 33:4 126:22 privileged 63:1 probably 8:6 11:25 14:2 17:20 18:14 28:16 34:10 37:8 49:23 56:13,21 58:4 61:1 79:14 80:3 80:22 82:16 87:3 89:4 119:13 122:23,25 130:19 143:18,22 145:24 problem 33:24,25 34:18 70:17 139:7 problems 23:3 118:5 procedures 6:23 proceeding 22:16 30:7 47:4,7,24 proceedings 33:12 process 15:8 16:24 24:2,3 36:11 38:19 43:9 48:21 68:1,11 70:5 71:1 101:9,15 102:22 112:3 114:25 115:5,13 118:24 119:3 119:12 120:22 121:6 127:6,9,15 130:9 133:16 135:8,10,12,14 137:3,23 138:12,12,13,20,21,25 138:25 139:1,14,15,15,16 146:7 149:22 152:5 153:18 processed 113:9 processing 113:16 127:11 proclaim 20:4 procured 61:16 procuring 69:11 produce 121:6,9,10,13,16 124:2 124:13 125:24 produced 77:7,14,18,24 99:15 124:6 product 145:20 production 21:7 professional 18:17 30:23 65:21 professor 13:16 professors 15:15 program 11:7,9 14:11,19,23 15:16 prompted 32:15 pronounce 94:25 pronunciation 78:9 95:3 proper 36:10 39:19 property 23:5 24:23 25:3,11,14 26:24 28:15,16 32:22 36:3 48:13 60:3,6 61:17 116:21 125:23 143:6 protect 32:7,8 64:7 Protection 6:16 22:18 125:20,22 126:21 143:3 proved 100:21 provenance 63:13,17,22 64:4,4 76:8,13,14 95:12 96:22 124:7 provide 53:15 60:24 123:12 125:23 provided 53:23 61:2 129:15 136:17 138:15 providing 86:5 99:3 provincial 79:13 147:20 Ptolemaeus 98:18 Ptolemaic 78:7,8,10,16,17 public 1:19 36:15,16,17 83:25 155:4,21 publication 69:18 publications 27:17 publish 22:20 published 22:9,14 25:8 publisher 19:3 publishing 11:20 32:17 Puetz 74:2 pull 25:9 pulled 28:12 purchase 61:8 146:9,13,14,19,20 149:10 purchaser 145:5,11 purely 134:24 purpose 32:7 38:8 42:24,25 43:2 51:17 74:25 120:24 121:1 purposely 54:5 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 54 of 61 Page 170 purposes 8:20 10:5 61:19,25 67:2 151:19 pursuant 67:4 pursuing 12:11 push 63:13 put 31:12,23,24 40:25 61:20 62:2 95:21 138:8 140:4 143:24,25 144:3,11 145:19 146:15 148:9 152:6 putting 148:24 149:23 Q quarter 69:4 queried 146:1 question 7:11,14 8:11,12,25 9:2,4 9:6,9,10,12,17 10:13 23:11 25:12,25 27:9,11 31:13 36:6 40:6 47:14,19 49:1 52:13,13,22 57:2 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106:19,20 restricting 33:6 restriction 64:21 restrictions 47:23 50:15,21 53:1 53:24 54:3,15 61:20 62:2 63:7 64:14 74:12 76:4,4 81:1 103:15 103:18,25 110:1,5 restroom 59:19 103:2 results 57:17 retail 87:10 retained 143:2 retire 12:7 retired 11:14,15 retrospect 79:19 return 51:2 returned 46:16 150:8 returning 45:7 reverse 147:21 rhetorical 37:23 Rigby 125:19 right 6:14 7:23 11:2 21:4 33:17 34:7,17 43:19,20 47:4 51:11 52:7 55:18 65:24 66:3,24 71:24 73:17 74:8 78:21 79:1 80:9 81:13 84:18 85:20 89:1 93:4,6 94:1,4,6,25 99:16 100:8 101:6 107:8 108:4 110:2,18 112:8 117:1 118:1 120:13 121:22 123:10 126:22 132:8,13,17 136:13 137:17,17,19,22 138:19 140:15 141:19,25 142:16,20 143:7 144:10 146:4 151:14 rights 13:4 Robert 83:8,9 84:22 85:1 101:8,11 130:6,22,23,25 role 31:5 Roman 18:3,4 78:20,23,25 79:12 79:13 81:10 97:17 Romans 18:5 Rubens 14:22 ruins 16:18 rule 40:2 78:4 121:5 rulers 77:8,15,25 rules 6:19 63:15 70:4,4 ruling 48:4 rulings 49:19,20 run 133:25 139:9 S S 6:1 sake 105:23 sale 19:5 146:2 saleable 83:24 84:2 satisfy 121:4 saw 12:18 18:24 19:7,8,9,11 33:23 33:24,25 34:11 44:11 96:5 saying 34:11,19 70:11 84:23 106:13 109:22 121:9 139:12 Sayles 1:14 4:2,6,7 5:1 6:2,9 9:18 49:25 50:4,5,10 51:21 52:1 58:15,25 60:11,16 61:8,14,16 67:9 72:25 84:11 90:7,12 91:14 93:9 103:7 111:22 116:1 119:23 122:4,20 123:18 125:1 128:2 139:21 147:8 153:24 154:14 155:5 Sayles's 50:3 109:15 says 26:8 27:14 40:1 61:8,14 63:5 80:7 81:9 83:1 86:17 87:1 91:5 94:18,19,24 96:20 101:2 104:16 123:8 125:21 scale 46:2 schedule 94:4,8 95:16 99:21,23 101:1 103:8 105:21 106:10 108:19 141:2 142:2 school 11:1,2,12,16 scientific 132:10 scope 44:24 49:14,17 second 11:13 55:16 77:16 85:9 94:3,18,18 116:8 secondhand 107:20 112:11 secondly 123:16 secretary/treasurer 29:20 section 53:8 Security 2:13 143:4 see 21:4 22:4 25:17 26:13 31:17 40:20 43:25 44:2,12 45:14 49:11 49:13 58:24 60:19 70:17 79:11 82:20,22 85:11 86:9 87:3 88:7 88:11 91:1 92:5,9,21 95:13,19 96:5,23 97:5 98:1 101:18 102:20 117:21 126:18 134:2,21 141:6 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70:10 112:25 115:1 119:1,7,8 shares 43:16 shed 103:21 133:16,19 SHEET 154:9 ship 79:24 shipment 61:17 81:25 91:10 92:19 92:21,24 94:9 101:4,8 103:9 112:6 141:22 144:9 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 56 of 61 Page 172 shipped 92:15 93:24 96:3,8 102:22,23 113:5,10 116:21 143:25 144:1 146:12 shipping 112:4 shop 17:12,17 shops 17:16 short 41:21 42:13 Shorthand 155:3 shoulder 7:4 show 37:10,11,17,25 40:10 50:9 69:16 113:9 119:19 132:22 150:6 showed 132:6 showing 38:5 73:5 84:16 93:14 shown 40:11 shows 36:17 37:13 133:10 shrug 7:4 Shu 97:4 108:11 side 15:4,5 30:15,18,22 sidetracked 39:15 sign 153:10 signature 92:5 signed 125:19 significance 47:15 significant 82:25 138:7 signing 147:22 153:25 154:1 silent 78:10 silver 77:12 78:13,15,19 similar 19:13,22 Simon 67:24,24,25 simple 22:5 simply 147:21 simultaneously 7:10 10:1,7 singled 51:3 sit 34:13 105:10 situation 9:1 51:2 145:11 146:5 skip 94:16 skipped 101:1 slightly 47:20 117:19 slow 127:7,8,16 small 11:1 138:4,10 so-called 57:9 society 13:17,18,20,25 14:2,3,8 16:11 sold 18:19,22 21:20 50:22 88:8 89:20 132:20 solely 149:15 somebody 87:12 somewhat 18:2 151:21 sorry 9:25 13:18 39:4 42:6 52:2 72:2 104:12,24 117:12 126:2,3 147:14 148:17,17 sort 21:20 29:20 37:25 43:25 44:11 47:11 68:1 74:24 87:8 112:10 117:3 131:17 138:3 150:22,23 Sorting 137:14 sound 10:12 sounds 121:19 132:8 source 107:11 sources 15:1 16:23 75:7 South 1:17 2:7,16 spade 105:4 spade-shaped 96:21 108:7 span 111:12,14,15 speak 7:8 36:15 62:13 71:22 specialist 15:17,18 specialization 13:11 14:12,14 specialized 15:7 specialty 88:6 specific 17:19 26:6 36:25 40:4 64:10 65:13 72:22 76:4,5 specifically 76:7 89:19 126:14 specifics 72:14 specified 65:17 specify 66:6 76:23 79:7 speculate 111:5,6 speculation 31:22 speed 127:5 spelled 102:5 spent 49:8 138:9 Spink 69:17 70:24 83:14,19 89:25 90:2 93:23 101:21,23 129:15 136:17 138:15 145:15 147:3 150:9 Spink's 148:10 spoke 71:5,19,24 72:5,8 spot 95:12 96:22 square 105:2 stamped 73:6 80:14 140:1 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136:19 150:17 suggesting 148:15,19 suing 26:2 suit 26:1 85:23 Suite 2:17 3:8 summary 20:19 summer 23:20 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 57 of 61 Page 173 supply 74:10,16,23 75:4,7 support 27:3 38:7 147:20 149:15 supported 45:23 136:25 suppose 77:4 supposed 76:18 107:2,4 supposedly 113:17 Supreme 45:1,2 sure 9:7 16:6 18:19 25:12 28:23 29:12 41:15 44:7 47:5,20 51:13 58:7 62:20 70:7 80:7 81:3 88:23 91:4 94:14 103:3 105:20 109:16 111:4 115:1 117:9,17,19 118:11 118:24 120:15,18,20 121:11 122:25 125:13 127:20 136:8 145:22 153:3 Surely 22:19 surprise 31:23 144:21 surprised 31:17 surrounding 25:14 58:5 suspect 143:18 sworn 6:4 155:6 symbiotic 15:19 synonyms 34:15 system 113:23 T table 27:10 53:23 tabled 54:17 Taeger 67:18 90:24 112:24 113:8 114:2 take 7:3 8:5,6,8,10,13 15:22 38:15 45:12 50:2 59:17 64:16 68:8 95:2 100:22 103:2 126:20 131:24 134:9,10 140:25 142:11 146:17 152:9 153:1 taken 1:14 26:14 59:22 103:4 153:6 takes 29:19 68:5 117:23 130:9,10 talk 6:18 8:18 37:15 42:6 72:13,22 83:4 127:15 136:12,15 talked 70:9 72:21 75:14 talking 7:10 41:16 45:17 74:6,18 84:7 87:9,10 103:7 105:17 110:17 123:4 127:16 131:12 137:11 138:4,9 140:6 151:18 talks 112:25 Tang 77:13,18 78:2 88:16 technique 21:1,7 tell 6:4 7:25 9:2,9 10:24 12:14 16:7 21:17,22 30:13 32:2 44:3 64:15 75:11 82:7 96:4 102:1 105:9 106:25 107:23 112:2,2,3 115:2,19 119:19 143:16 144:17 144:19,23 150:1,7 152:4 telling 33:23 73:11 114:3,6 tells 20:24,25 72:19 ten 11:14 23:21 27:1 ten-year 11:5 tendered 52:11 tens 63:25 term 37:23 41:9,19 44:7 115:1 117:5 133:13 terms 39:19 49:7 80:15 test 61:20 62:1 63:6 69:15,21 74:12 113:18 testified 6:6 testifying 106:6 testimony 10:15,20 26:13 154:5 155:9 thank 39:14 49:2 62:23 115:11 138:11 153:12 thesis 14:17,20 thing 17:14 21:21 26:8 29:20 45:3 54:15 68:2 72:3 111:19 150:24 things 16:8 18:6 20:24 29:14 35:24 38:23 45:23 54:3 115:13 130:12 139:8 think 10:6,7,10,19 11:23 13:11 15:9,24 16:11 20:4,22 27:1 30:10 33:3 34:8 36:24 38:12 39:2 41:18,23,23,24 42:23 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138:1,9,21,23 143:13,16 145:1,3,6,12,14,17,20 145:20 146:3,6,7,10,24 150:21 valued 101:13 132:12 134:24 values 99:25 100:1,8,13 140:4,14 143:4,12 144:11,25 valuing 89:2,3 133:18 136:12,15 137:3 variety 16:23 130:12 various 8:16 49:22 venture 31:21 43:15 venue 68:12 70:19 verbal 7:2 verbalized 7:5 verify 107:12 135:25 versus 22:17 30:9 37:7 43:23 view 26:17 27:8 28:8 41:5 45:23 views 49:20,21 voice 33:12 39:24 volunteer 31:7 vs 1:6 W wait 7:10,13 126:16 waited 127:12,13 waived 153:25 Wales 147:20 wanders 117:14 want 15:25 27:12 50:10 52:21,23 62:11 63:8 65:5 68:3,8 77:23 79:2 87:14 136:22,23 152:9,12 152:22 153:3,19,20 wanted 13:4 63:10 64:22,24 65:3 65:5 68:4 72:14 75:15 77:4 82:23 102:3 120:25 129:22 146:18 148:1,3,4 151:8,13 wanting 41:17 wants 19:3 135:17 148:10 152:17 warn 62:11 Washington 3:9 36:1 68:16 wasn't 23:1 24:4,18 46:11 48:6 55:15 74:19 107:20 114:13 119:4 144:7 way 11:4 15:13 23:16 27:13,14 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 59 of 61 Page 175 37:16 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52:2,4,25 96:20 1/16/07 80:17 1/16/09 80:18 1:26 153:6 1:34 153:7 1:37 153:24 10 4:23 63:23 111:21,23 112:22 113:14 134:5 10:01 1:15 100 73:25 97:4 101:3 102:17 103:13 106:14 108:11,24 109:7 110:13,20 133:4 101 74:1 75:21 1015 3:7 103 4:15 73:2,7 11 4:24,24 92:12 115:25 116:2,2,6 116:7 11:09 59:22 11:15 59:23 111 4:23 116 4:24 119 5:2 12 1:15 4:25 5:2 116:3,7,8 119:22 119:24 120:11 12.104c 123:9,13 124:3 12:13 103:4 12:18 103:5 122 5:3 125 5:4 128 5:6 12th 74:5 13 5:3 31:2 122:3,5,9 1300s 15:10 139 5:7 14 5:4 98:4 124:25 125:2,7,19 14-37 98:18,23 147 5:9 15 5:6 63:23 87:13 128:1,3,8 136:2,10 150 97:11 108:16 15th 120:13 16 5:7 139:19,22 140:1,19 142:4 142:14 17 5:9 147:7,9,12 148:12 18th 3:7 19 123:9,13 124:3 193-217 98:15 1971 12:5 1982 12:9 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 60 of 61 Page 176 1983 26:12,15 1986 12:6 1987 32:18 34:24 1st 155:16 2 2 4:8 51:19,22 52:1 53:4,6 55:1 94:19,24 20 63:23 108:12 200 97:11 108:15 2000 32:20,20 20036 3:9 2004 32:20,20 33:4 2007 53:21 54:6 2008 55:25 70:12 2009 24:17 36:23 37:3 69:2,4 70:3 74:5,21 81:6 86:3 94:10 120:13 125:8 126:13 128:15 136:1 138:13 141:10,18,20 142:15 2010 24:16,21 35:4 37:7 55:25 2011 43:24 2016 1:15 155:16 202 3:10 2020 155:22 204 3:8 209-4801 2:10 212 2:17 21201 2:9 21202 2:18 22 76:14 98:8 126:18 220 97:4 23 5:7 92:11,18 131:12,13 132:16 133:12 134:9,9 135:6 139:2,22 140:1,18 142:5,12 143:2 23rd 81:6 24 5:8 98:17,22 139:23 140:2 142:5 143:2 25 87:3,9 95:13 120:11 130:19,25 26th 125:8 27 98:4 126:13 275 131:25 132:8,16 134:11 147:3 150:3 151:22 152:18 28 98:4 155:22 2nd 94:10 128:15 136:1 138:13 3 3 4:10 58:14,16,21 61:4,7 76:24 77:1,3 97:3,10 30 4:13 19:10 67:10,15 98:12 30(b)(6) 9:20,23 10:9 30(b)6 49:14 58:25 300 95:11 96:8 108:3 133:3 31 5:9 147:9,13 148:12 31st 86:2 33 5:3 122:5,9,20 331-4209 3:10 34 5:3 122:6,10 35 122:16 36 1:17 2:7 37 5:4 125:2,7,18 126:3 4 4 4:11 60:8,12 61:5,6,13 104:8,13 112:22 40 2:16 19:10,10 134:22 400 96:21 108:7 410 2:10,19 43 5:5 125:3,8 44 5:6 128:3,8 45 129:7 46 128:8,12 129:13 136:2,10 138:13 47 5:6 128:4 4th 1:18 2:8 44:15 141:8,20 5 5 4:13 67:8,10,14 84:4,5,6 134:5 134:14 5,000 84:5 50 4:7 18:16 22:25 132:21 50-year 16:6 501(c)(4) 32:6 51 4:8,17 90:8,14,19,20,22 91:12 52 4:19 91:2,12,15,19 53 4:18,20 5:2 90:9,14,20 91:13,16 92:8 119:24 58 4:10 6 6 4:3,14 61:12,14 72:24 73:1,6 80:13 81:7 104:15 60 4:11 600 50:20 62 4:21 93:10,17,25 63 4:22 93:11,17 94:6 99:19 103:10 106:9 140:15,19 67 4:13 7 7 4:16 84:10,12,17 85:9 101:2 104:16 73 4:14 7th 141:17 8 8 4:17,19 90:6,8,13 91:11,12,15 94:13 112:22 84 4:16 89 78:1 9 9 4:21 93:8,10,15 103:9 106:10 141:1 9-11 70:18 90 4:17 125:23 126:16,22 907 77:7,15,24 78:1 85:11,25 88:18 91 4:19 93 4:21 94 4:16 84:12,17 87:1 95 4:16 84:13,17 85:8 962-4471 2:19 99 4:14 73:1,6 80:12,14 81:9 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-3 Filed 08/22/16 Page 61 of 61 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND Northern Division UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff, v. Three Knife-Shaped Coins, Twelve Chinese Coins, and Seven Cypriot Coins, Defendants. ) ) ) ) Civil No. CCB-13-1183 ) ) ) ) ) CLAIMANT’S RESPONSES TO PLAINTIFF’S REQUESTS FOR ADMISSIONS (AMENDED) Pursuant to Rule 36 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Local Rule 104 and the Scheduling Order, Claimant Ancient Coin Collectors Guild (“Claimant” or “the Guild”), by the undersigned counsel, hereby objects and responds to the Plaintiff’s Requests for Admissions as follows. GENERAL OBJECTIONS 1. The Guild objects to each request for admission to the extent that it exceeds the requirements set forth by the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and/or the Local Rules of the United States District Court for the District of Maryland. 2. The Guild objects to each request for admission to the extent that it is overly broad or unduly burdensome. 3. The Guild objects to each request for admission to the extent that it is unreasonably cumulative or duplicative. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-4 Filed 08/22/16 Page 1 of 6 2 4. The Guild objects to each request for admission to the extent that it seeks information protected by the attorney-client privilege, the work product doctrine, or other applicable privileges. A privilege log will be produced for any withheld document. 5. The Guild objects to each request for admission to the extent that it seeks the disclosure of information that is not relevant to the claims or defenses of any party or the subject matter involved in this action. 6. The Guild objects to each request for admission to the extent that it is vague, ambiguous and/or confusing. 7. The Guild objects to each request for admission to the extent that it is impermissibly compound, multipart, and consisting of several discrete interrogatories or document requests. 8. The Guild objects to the plaintiff’s definition of “document” as burdensome and vexatious, and to the extent it seeks to impose obligations greater than those set forth in the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and/or the Local Rules of the United States District Court for the District of Maryland. 9. The Guild incorporates each of these objections to the extent they apply to the following request for admissions, in addition to any specific objections. 10. The Guild specifically reserves the right to supplement, amend, or alter his responses as discovery develops. RESPONSE TO FIRST REQUESTS FOR ADMISSION (AMENDED) 1. For each coin numbered 1 through 22 on the Coin Documentation List, admit that the coin is authentic. RESPONSE: Admitted. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-4 Filed 08/22/16 Page 2 of 6 3 2. For each coin numbered 1 through 15 on the Coin Documentation List, admit that the coin appears on the Designated List for coins from China. RESPONSE: Admitted in part. The Guild admits that coin numbers 1-6, 12-13 appear to be of types found on the Chinese designated list based upon their characteristics. (Either spade, knife money, or early “Two Character” “cash” coins. See http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/china/chinaid.htm.) The Guild is unable to admit or deny whether coin numbers 7-11, 14-15 are of types that appear on the Chinese designated list. In order to determine whether these coins are of types on the designated list, one would require working knowledge of Chinese as well as access to numismatic references that depict such coins. The Guild has access to the latter, but has no working knowledge of the Chinese language and is, therefore, unable to admit or deny whether coin numbers 7-11, 14-15 are of types that appear on the Chinese designated list. 3. For each coin numbered 16 through 22 on the Coin Documentation List, admit that the coin appears on the Designated List for coins of Cypriot type. RESPONSE: Admitted. 4. Admit that the photographs of the Defendant Property, taken by Lori Trusheim on July 2, 2015 are fair and accurate representations of the Defendant Property. RESPONSE: Admitted. 5. Admit that all of the information contained on the Spink Invoice is accurate. 6. RESPONSE: Admitted in part. The Guild admits that the invoice appears accurate, but notes there is a discrepancy between the number of coins listed and the number of coins that constitute the “Defendant Property.” 7. Admit that twenty-two of the twenty-three coins on the Spink Invoice constitute the Defendant Property. RESPONSE: Admitted. 8. Admit that the Defendant Property was purchased from a coin dealer in London. RESPONSE: Admitted, but the Guild also notes that the Chinese coins were sourced from a Canadian dealer. 9. Admit that the Defendant Property was imported into the United States. RESPONSE: Admitted. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-4 Filed 08/22/16 Page 3 of 6 4 10. Admit that the Guild knowingly imported the Defendant Property into the United States. RESPONSE: Admitted. 11. Admit that the Guild purposefully imported the Defendant Property into the United States. RESPONSE: Admitted. 12. Admit that the Guild was aware the Defendant Property was subject to United States import restrictions. RESPONSE: Admitted in part and denied in part. The Guild admits that all the Cypriot coins and at least some of the Chinese coins appear on the designated lists, but denies that government has made out a case for forfeiture. 13. Admit that the Guild imported the Defendant Property into the United States in order to test the legality of import restrictions imposed on ancient Cypriot and Chinese coins. RESPONSE: Admitted. 14. Admit that the Guild imported coins with unknown find spots in order to test the legality of import restrictions imposed on ancient Cypriot and Chinese coins. RESPONSE: Admitted. 15. Admit that the Guild has not produced a “certificate or other documentation of the State Party required under” 19 U.S.C. § 2606(a). RESPONSE: The Guild objects to this Request to the extent it assumes the government has met its own burden of proof, because it assumes that 19. U.S.C. § 2606 governs this forfeiture action, and because it calls for a legal conclusion. Notwithstanding this objection, the Guild denies this request because the Court may treat documentation that provides evidence of legal export from an EU country as meeting this requirement. See Expert Report of Michael McCullough. 16. Admit that the Guild is unable to produce a “certificate or other documentation of the State Party required under” 19 U.S.C. § 2606(a). RESPONSE: The Guild objects to this Request to the extent it assumes the government has met its own burden of proof or the Guild may not meet its own on rebuttal by a “preponderance of the evidence,” because it assumes that 19. U.S.C. § 2606 governs this forfeiture action, and because it calls for a legal conclusion. Notwithstanding this objection, the Guild denies this request because the Court may treat documentation that Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-4 Filed 08/22/16 Page 4 of 6 5 provides evidence of evidence of legal export from an EU country as meeting this requirement. See Expert Report of Michael McCullough. 17. Admit that the Guild has not produced “satisfactory evidence” that the Defendant Property was exported from the State Party pursuant to 19 U.S.C. § 2606(b)(2), as the term “satisfactory evidence” is defined in 19 U.S.C. § 2606(c). RESPONSE: The Guild objects to this Request to the extent it assumes the government has met its own burden of proof or the Guild may not meet its own on rebuttal by a “preponderance of the evidence,” because it assumes that 19. U.S.C. § 2606 governs this forfeiture action, and because it calls for a legal conclusion. Notwithstanding this objection, the Guild denies this request because the Court may treat evidence of circulation of ancient Chinese and Cypriot coins as meeting this requirement. See Expert Report of Douglas Mudd. 18. Admit that the Guild is unable to produce “satisfactory evidence” that the Defendant Property was exported from the State Party pursuant to 19 U.S.C. § 2606(b)(2), as the term “satisfactory evidence” is defined in 19 U.S.C. § 2606(c). RESPONSE: The Guild objects to this Request to the extent it assumes the government has met its own burden of proof or the Guild may not meet its own on rebuttal by a “preponderance of the evidence,” because it assumes that 19. U.S.C. § 2606 governs this forfeiture action, and because it calls for a legal conclusion. Notwithstanding this objection, the Guild denies this request because the Court may treat evidence of circulation of ancient Chinese and Cypriot coins as meeting this requirement. See Expert Report of Douglas Mudd. Dated: October 28, 2015 Respectfully submitted, /s/ Peter K. Tompa ___________________________ Jason H. Ehrenberg (#16481) Peter K. Tompa (#18673) BAILEY & EHRENBERG PLLC 1015 18th Street, N.W. Suite 204 Washington, D.C. 20036 Tel: (202) 331-1331 jhe@becounsel.com pkt@becounsel.com Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-4 Filed 08/22/16 Page 5 of 6 6 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE I hereby certify that on this 28th day of October 2015 a copy of the Claimant’s answers to the Plaintiff’s Requests for Admissions (Amended), by electronic mail, to: Molissa H. Farber Assistant United States Attorney 36 South Charles Street Fourth Floor Baltimore, MD 21201 /s/ Peter K. Tompa ___________________________ Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-4 Filed 08/22/16 Page 6 of 6 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 1 (Pages 1 to 4) 1 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND 3 BETWEEN: 4 5 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) ) 6 Plaintiff, ) v. ) Civil No. 7 )CCB-13-1183 Three Knife-Shaped Coins ) 8 Twelve Chinese Coins,and ) Seven Cypriot Coins, ) 9 Defendants. ) 10 11 EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY UPON ORAL EXAMINATION 12 OF 13 MR. JOHN PETT 14 On 15 Wednesday, 9th December 2015 16 17 Commencing at 2.08pm 18 Taken at: 19 Spink & Son 69 Southampton Row 20 Bloomsbury London WC1B 4ET 21 United Kingdom 22 23 24 25 2 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 3 A P P E A R A N C E S 4 5 On behalf of the Plaintiff: 6 UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE - 7 DISTRICT OF MARYLAND 8 36 S. Charles St. 9 4th Floor 10 Baltimore, MD 21201 11 BY: MS. MOLISSA H. FARBER 12 (via telephone) 13 14 On behalf of the Defendants: 15 BAILEY & EHRENBERG LLP 16 1015 18th Street NW 17 Suite 204 18 Washington, D.C. 20036 19 BY: MR. PETER K. TOMPA 20 (via telephone) 21 22 Court Reporter: 23 Mr. Shola McGregor 24 25 3 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 I N D E X 3 Witness 4 Mr. John Pett 5 Examination: Page No: 6 Examination by Ms. Farber 7 7 Examination by Mr. Tompa 84 8 Re-Examination by Ms. Farber 94 9 __________________________________________________ 10 EXHIBIT INDEX 11 12 Number Page 13 14 1 32 15 2 41 16 3 43 17 4 55 18 5 63 19 6 69 20 7 73 21 8 87 22 9 91 23 10 97 24 25 4 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 MR. JOHN PETT 3 having duly sworn 4 was examined and did testify as follows 5 6 EXAMINATION: 7 (On the record at 2.08pm) 8 9 BY MS. FARBER: 10 Q. Parties have stipulated that the 11 London-based court reporter may take this 12 deposition without the presence of a notary. 13 Good afternoon, Mr. Pett. 14 A. Good afternoon. 15 Q. My name is Molissa Farber. I will 16 be taking the deposition today. 17 A. Very good. 18 Q. Have you ever been deposed before? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. This will be a new and fun 21 experience, hopefully. Have you spoken with any 22 attorneys in preparation for this deposition? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you have an attorney present 25 with you today? Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 1 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 (Pages 5 to 8) 5 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. No. 3 Q. I am going to talk a little bit 4 about how a deposition works. It is a little bit 5 unusual and a bit different from just having a 6 normal conversation with somebody, as I am sure 7 you have already noticed. We will just go through 8 a couple of the ground rules for a deposition, 9 okay? 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. In this deposition I will be asking 12 you questions and Mr. McGregor is going to record 13 the answers on a transcript, so it is important to 14 speak up and answer the reporter if he asks you to 15 clarify everything since he will be writing 16 everything down. Do you understand? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. I do not think this will be much of 19 a problem since we are all on the phone today, but 20 the court reporter can only write down verbal 21 responses, so any nod of your head or shake of 22 your head he will not be able to record it and I 23 will not see it, so make sure that all of your 24 answers are verbal. Do you understand? 25 A. Yes, indeed. 6 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. Great. Another important thing 3 when we have somebody recording what we are saying 4 is that we all -- you and me and Mr. Tompa -- try 5 not to talk over each other since the court 6 reporter can only record one person talking at a 7 time. If you are speaking I will let you finish 8 before I start talking and if I am speaking I ask 9 that you do the same. If I interrupt you by 10 accident, if you have not finished your answer let 11 me know so that I can let you finish. Does that 12 make sense? 13 A. Yes, indeed. 14 Q. You have taken an oath to be 15 truthful during today's deposition. Do you 16 understand what that means? 17 A. Absolutely. 18 Q. Do you intend to be truthful in 19 today's deposition? 20 A. Absolutely. 21 Q. Since we are on the phone, if for 22 some reason the connection gets spotty and you 23 have a hard time understanding my question just 24 let me know, tell me that you do not understand, 25 whether it is because the connection is bad or 7 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 because you do not understand the words that I am 3 asking if I phrase the question badly, let me know 4 because if you answer my question I am going to 5 assume that you heard it and understood it. Will 6 you be able to do that? 7 A. I will do my best. 8 Q. Very good. If you need a break, 9 for whatever reason, let me know and I will look 10 for a stopping point in the questions so that we 11 can take a break if you need it. Is that okay? 12 A. Yes, indeed. 13 Q. Great. 14 MR. TOMPA: Molissa, this is Peter. 15 Would you mind just mentioning to him what happens 16 if there is an objection? 17 18 BY MS. FARBER: 19 Q. Yes. From time to time I may ask a 20 question or Mr. Tompa may ask a question that 21 raises an objection, which means that one or the 22 other attorneys disagrees or has some kind of 23 issue with the question. The way that will be 24 phrased is that either I or Mr. Tompa will say the 25 word "objection" and then we might state the basis 8 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 for that objection. That is something that the 3 lawyers deal with between themselves, essentially 4 and for the most part is not going to affect you. 5 If you hear somebody say "objection" and state a 6 basis for an objection you can still proceed to 7 answer the question after that, unless someone 8 specifically instructs you not to. We can cross 9 that bridge if we come to it. Do you understand 10 that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Sometimes what will happen in a 13 deposition is that you will give an answer and it 14 will seem like the most complete answer that you 15 can give and then later, maybe five minutes in or 16 an hour in, you will remember something else, you 17 will remember additional information or a 18 clarification that you would like to add to that 19 earlier response. If that happens, you can tell 20 me and we can get that on the record, so just 21 because we have already moved on from a question 22 we can still go back and add to it or clarify if 23 you think of something else. Will you be able to 24 do that? 25 A. Yes. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 2 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 3 (Pages 9 to 12) 9 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. Okay. It may also happen that you 3 give an answer to a question and then you realise 4 later that your previous answer was not accurate. 5 That is okay. Just mention it when you realise it 6 and we will get that testimony on the record, 7 okay? 8 A. Very good. 9 Q. You may also think of some 10 documents, while you are answering a question, 11 that might help you give a more accurate answer. 12 If you do, please, mention it because we may 13 either have the documents or we may be able to 14 find them, okay? 15 A. Very good. 16 Q. I have just a couple more 17 introductory questions. Because we want to make 18 sure we are getting the most full, complete and 19 accurate answers I have to ask whether you are 20 taking any kind of medication or drugs or cough 21 syrup with alcohol or anything that might make it 22 difficult for you to answer questions today? 23 A. No. No, I do not think so. 24 Q. Are you sick at all today? 25 A. No. I am recovering, at the 10 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 moment, from radiotherapy for head and neck 3 cancer, but I have no saliva so I have a glass of 4 water here to lubricate myself, but it should not 5 impair my mental faculties. 6 Q. Okay. If at any point you need 7 more water, will you be able to -- just let us 8 know and we can take a break, okay? 9 A. I will let you know. 10 Q. Is there any reason that the 11 treatment that you have had for your cancer would 12 affect your ability to be truthful in today's 13 testimony? 14 A. Absolutely not. 15 Q. Great. Do you have any questions 16 for me before we start? 17 A. No. I am intrigued about this 18 whole process. 19 Q. Great. Let us get started then. 20 Why do you not tell me a little bit about your 21 educational background? 22 A. I left school with three A-levels 23 and studied classics at Nottingham University, 24 where I graduated with a 2:1 and I have been 25 working for Spink ever since. 11 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. What is a 2:1? 3 A. An upper second-class degree, which 4 in those days was an achievement and now they dole 5 them out as a matter of routine, but that is by 6 the by! 7 Q. What area did you study? 8 A. Latin, Greek, ancient history. 9 That is about it. 10 Q. You mentioned that you started at 11 Spink as soon as you graduated? 12 A. Yes, a few months after graduated I 13 started here, in March 1975. 14 Q. Wow. Have you been working at 15 Spink ever since? 16 A. I have. 17 Q. What positions have you held at 18 Spink? 19 A. I was an associate director of the 20 company, in charge of ancient coins. That has 21 rather fallen by the wayside after I was stricken 22 with cancer so I am now just a specialist here, 23 working two days a week. 24 Q. To be clear, your cancer, has that 25 affected your memory? 12 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. It can take a little while to 3 recall certain facts, but I would like to think 4 I have not lost it all! 5 Q. Right. Is your cancer -- I 6 apologise if these questions sound insensitive in 7 this context -- in your brain at all? 8 A. No. No, no, no, no, absolutely 9 not. No, no. It was routine cancer of the base 10 of the tongue, which they have managed to 11 neutralise apparently. 12 Q. I am very glad to hear that. What 13 was your position when you first started at Spink? 14 A. Assistant in the ancient coin 15 department. 16 Q. Have you been in the ancient coin 17 department for your entire tenure at Spink? 18 A. I have, yes. 19 Q. What was your background in ancient 20 coins prior to coming to Spink? 21 A. None whatsoever. None whatsoever. 22 I did not know that so many of these things 23 existed! 24 Q. What prompted you to go into the 25 ancient coins department? Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 3 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 4 (Pages 13 to 16) 13 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. A matter of fluke, really. I 3 thought I might quite like to work in the area of 4 antiques and applied to Spink to see if they could 5 help out at all. They took one look at my CV and 6 thought, "Ancient coins. We have a place in the 7 coin department just become available, it is 8 yours". I went along with it, expecting to 9 graduate to paintings or oriental art or before 10 but, no, once you get into coins that is what I 11 am! 12 Q. Would you walk me through the 13 positions that you have held, starting from your 14 first title? 15 A. We have never been extremely keen 16 on titles within the old company, as it were. I 17 joined, as I say, as an assistant, which is what I 18 was, until I was put in charge of the department 19 about eight years later. 20 Q. That would have been approximately 21 1983 that you ---- 22 A. Yes, '82/'83. My erstwhile boss 23 was nearing retirement and they wanted to move him 24 on anyway because he was not moving with the 25 times, and I was promoted to being in charge of 14 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 the department when he left. 3 Q. What were your responsibilities as 4 the -- was it the director of the department or 5 the head of the department? 6 A. I was head of the department until 7 they shortly thereafter made me an associate 8 director of the company, which is an elevation 9 they give to most people who are actually running 10 departments at Spink. 11 Q. Okay. What were your 12 responsibilities as associate director of Spink? 13 A. Generally speaking, to make money 14 through buying and selling ancient coins. 15 Q. What were your day-to-day 16 responsibilities as far as ancient coins were 17 concerned? 18 A. We used to produce a monthly 19 catalogue of coins at fixed prices, so the general 20 work was buying coins, writing them up, giving 21 them references. Grading them and pricing them, 22 getting them photographed and printed in this 23 monthly catalogue was the prime role. Meanwhile, 24 customers would come in to buy and sell on a daily 25 basis. Plus, I would travel to foreign auctions 15 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 and foreign coin shows, again selling coins, 3 buying coins, attending auctions, representing 4 clients at other people's auctions, so on and so 5 forth. 6 Q. How many people worked in the coin 7 department? 8 A. At its peak we had four but 9 thereafter, generally speaking, three, one of whom 10 was the secretary/receptionist/general factotum. 11 Q. You said at the peak the coin 12 department had four employees. When was that? 13 A. When I first joined in 1975. I 14 think we had four then and that went down to three 15 when my boss left. It has stayed that way ever 16 since. 17 Q. What were the names of the 18 employees in the coin department in February 19 through September of 2009? 20 A. Good Lord. 2009, by that stage I 21 was already on a two day week myself, so I was not 22 in day-to-day charge of the department. That 23 would have been Paul Dawson, who would have been 24 in overall charge in 2009. There would have been 25 Max Tursi, who would have been doing most of the 16 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 buying, selling and writing up then. I tend to 3 write the catalogues while Max just deals with the 4 clientele. Generally, he did most of the work, I 5 just came in two days a week to keep an eye on him 6 and to price and write the catalogues for him. It 7 was just the three of us really. 8 Q. What were your day-to-day 9 responsibilities at that point in 2009? 10 A. 2009, as I say, generally just 11 writing descriptions of coins, grading them and 12 pricing them for the Numismatic Circular, our 13 monthly publication. 14 Q. Okay. You mentioned that part of 15 your job as associate director involved pricing of 16 coins. What does that entail? 17 A. A grading of the coin, generally 18 speaking. You compare how well preserved it is, 19 being cognisant of what the market has dictated 20 through auctions for previous coins of similar 21 description, and pricing it accordingly. 22 Q. How do you come up with the 23 appropriate price for a coin? 24 A. As I say, with reference to 25 previous auction records, bearing in mind that Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 4 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 5 (Pages 17 to 20) 17 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 every ancient coin is a unique item, no two are 3 identical -- if they are, one of them is fake -- 4 and generally ranking it within that hierarchy of 5 what had previously sold and having a look at what 6 we had to pay for it, of course, and pricing it 7 fairly for retail sale. 8 Q. Does Spink have written procedures 9 regarding appraisals? 10 A. No. 11 Q. But the process that you have 12 described to me, would you say that is standard in 13 the industry? 14 A. Very much so. Very much so. 15 Q. Is it important that coins be 16 priced accurately? 17 A. It is important for us to be seen 18 to be asking a fair price, so I would say yes, it 19 is important that coins are priced reasonably 20 accurately. 21 Q. The procedure that you have 22 described for pricing coins, is that the best way 23 to arrive at an accurate price for a coin? 24 A. Yes, I would say so. It has served 25 us pretty well for 100 years or more we have been 18 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 dealing in coins here. 3 Q. Is there any difference between the 4 price of a coin and its fair market value? 5 A. What do you mean ---- 6 MR. TOMPA: I am going to object. 7 If you can wait a second. I am going to object 8 because I think this testimony is getting into 9 areas that are not relevant to this case. I just 10 want to make that objection to the record. 11 12 BY MS. FARBER: 13 Q. Okay. Mr. Pett, you can answer the 14 question. The question was whether there is a 15 difference between the price of a coin and its 16 fair market value? 17 A. What do you mean by "the price of 18 the coin"? 19 Q. I will rephrase the question. Is 20 there a difference between pricing a coin and 21 determining its fair market value, or are they 22 essentially the same process? 23 A. It is essentially the same process. 24 After you have handled the thousands of coins that 25 one does here you can pick a coin up and, if it is 19 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 a routine item that you have had hundreds of 3 before, you know pretty well what its wholesale 4 and retail price can be. 5 Q. Mr. Pett, the reason that we 6 initially wanted to speak with you is that in the 7 process of litigating the case that Mr. Tompa and 8 I are working on, you were identified as an 9 ancient coin expert at Spink who has knowledge 10 about Spink's procedures for the export of ancient 11 coins. Does that sound accurate to you? 12 A. Yes. I am familiar with the whole 13 process of sending coins to people throughout the 14 world, although I do not physically myself put all 15 the export details on the outside of the 16 envelopes. We have a gentleman in our post room, 17 who is also familiar with all these, who does 18 that. 19 Q. What is your expertise, the basis 20 for your expertise in ancient coins? 21 A. Frankly, working at Spinks for 40 22 years and having handled literally tens of 23 thousands of ancient coins in the course of my 24 career. 25 Q. It is hard to imagine that many. 20 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 I have seen only the 22 ancient coins in this case 3 and that is ---- 4 A. They are wretched things! There 5 are collectors even for coins of that grade. 6 Q. Yes, we will get to that in a 7 little bit. Have you taken any coursework in 8 ancient coins? 9 A. No, but I attend lectures at the 10 Royal Numismatics Society and read scholarly 11 journals and publications that our book department 12 stocks here. 13 Q. What journals do you read? 14 A. The Swiss Numismatic Review is 15 produced every year, that has articles of new 16 research on coins. There is the American Journal 17 of Numismatics, again which produces articles 18 every year on the same thing. There is the 19 Numismatic Chronicle, which is published by the 20 Royal Numismatic Society that comes out every 21 year, again with new articles on ancient coins. 22 Q. Any others? 23 A. There are other journals written in 24 languages I cannot read, but which I look at the 25 photographs for and can look at the numbers, but Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 5 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 6 (Pages 21 to 24) 21 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 generally speaking those are the main ones. 3 Q. I would like to talk briefly about 4 Spink's procedures for the export of ancient 5 coins. What are those procedures? 6 A. Very few, really, because there is 7 very little that I can think of that you cannot 8 just post out of the country. There are no 9 restrictions on most things unless they have come 10 out of British soil, in which case theoretically 11 one should apply for an export licence for them. 12 Q. Is it Spink's practice to send 13 invoices along with their export? 14 A. Yes, generally speaking. 15 Certainly. 16 Q. Is it important to Spink that these 17 invoices be accurate? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Why is that important? 20 A. Because otherwise it can lead to 21 misunderstandings. 22 Q. What do you mean? 23 A. I would almost turn the question 24 back to you; why would we want to not -- it is 25 important because if things have to go through 22 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 customs they are entitled to know what the goods 3 are and what the value is. 4 Q. What would happen if an invoice was 5 not accurate? 6 A. I do not know. Presumably the 7 client would not pay us the right sum of money. 8 Q. What are Spink's procedures for 9 making sure that invoices are accurate? 10 A. Generally speaking, if it was 11 ancient coins I would be writing the invoices 12 myself. That is the only guarantee that I have 13 that they are accurate. 14 Q. What would you do to ensure that 15 they are accurate while you write the invoice? 16 A. As I was in charge of the 17 department, if I say they are accurate they are 18 accurate. 19 Q. What did you do to make sure that 20 it was accurate? 21 A. I am almost lost for words. It is 22 either accurate or not. If it is a coin 23 advertised for sale at £2000 I write an invoice 24 for £2000 and off it goes. 25 Q. This involves the process of 23 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 pricing a coin, listing the sale price of the 3 coin, is that right? 4 A. Yes, generally speaking. Yes. 5 Q. Are you familiar with an 6 organisation called the Ancient Coin Collectors 7 Guild? 8 A. Yes, I am. 9 Q. How are you familiar with it? 10 A. I know it was an organisation I 11 think set up by Wayne Sayles, who I have known for 12 many years, as a sort of equivalent to what we 13 have in this country in the Numismatic Society, 14 just to put people in touch with each other and a 15 body to represent their interests, not least of 16 all with regard to customs seizures. 17 Q. What is your understanding of how 18 the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild represents 19 interests regarding customs seizures? 20 MR. TOMPA: That is calling for 21 speculation. He can testify of what he is aware 22 of, but he is no expert. 23 24 BY MS. FARBER: 25 Q. Okay. You can answer, Mr. Pett? 24 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. To be honest, I am not entirely 3 sure, but presumably if someone is having a 4 problem they can liaise with it and see if there 5 has been any knowledge filtered through and advice 6 as to how best to handle the situation. 7 Q. Are you aware of any of the Guild's 8 positions regarding customs regulations of ancient 9 coins? 10 A. No, I am afraid not. I used to 11 come to America several times a year for 20 years 12 or more, but I have not been in the last 12 years 13 so I have not seen anybody at the Guild in many 14 years now. 15 Q. Are you a member of the Ancient 16 Coin Collectors Guild? 17 A. Not that I am aware, no, unless 18 they made me an honorary member and never bothered 19 to let me know, but no I am not. 20 Q. Do you receive any of their 21 mailings? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You mentioned that you are familiar 24 with Wayne Sayles? 25 A. Yes. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 6 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 7 (Pages 25 to 28) 25 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. How are you familiar with him? 3 A. I have met him on numerous 4 occasions at the New York coin shows. He attends 5 most coin shows and, as I say, I used to do the 6 New York, the Chicago and the ANA show every year 7 for many years and would frequently chat to him, 8 even sell him the odd coin. 9 Q. Did you and Mr. Sayles ever discuss 10 customs regulations of ancient coins? 11 A. No, I do not think I have with him. 12 No. 13 Q. Have you interacted with anyone 14 else from the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild 15 besides Mr. Sayles? 16 A. No, unless Peter Tompa is a member 17 of the Guild. 18 Q. What have been your interactions 19 with Mr. Tompa about ancient coins? 20 A. Peter came to my knowledge when he 21 volunteered his services to the IAPN, the 22 International Association for Professional 23 Numismatics, of which I was vice president for a 24 year or two many moons ago, in order to represent 25 their interests with the Government when they were 26 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 considering introducing regulations about 3 importation of certain material. 4 MR. TOMPA: Molissa, I am just going 5 to interpose an objection to further questions 6 about my interactions with Mr. Pett regarding IAPN 7 because I am their attorney and I think we are 8 getting into attorney/client. 9 MS. FARBER: Okay. 10 MR. TOMPA: What you asked was fine, 11 but getting into details I am getting concerned. 12 MS. FARBER: Okay. I will just ask 13 one further question about what the case is about, 14 without getting into anything that you have said 15 in your capacity as an attorney or anything about 16 your litigation strategy. Would that be ---- 17 MR. TOMPA: Why don't you ask the 18 question and I will start with that. 19 20 BY MS. FARBER: 21 Q. Okay. Mr. Pett, what is the case 22 about that Mr. Tompa volunteered for? 23 A. To be perfectly honest, I cannot 24 remember now. I do not know. You would have to 25 ask him, but I remember there was a proposed 27 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 legislation in the States for limiting the import 3 of certain categories of coinage and the IAPN I 4 believe wanted to object to it. 5 Q. Around when was this? When did you 6 speak? 7 A. I am afraid, in terms of what year, 8 I really cannot recall. It must have been about 9 15 years ago. Peter would have to fill in what 10 particular restriction was on the cards at that 11 particular time, but I cannot honestly recall. 12 MR. TOMPA: I will again just say 13 for the record that this is for another client 14 that is not involved in this case, so it is not 15 even relevant, in my view. 16 17 BY MS. FARBER: 18 Q. Do you know if that litigation is 19 still ongoing, Mr. Pett? 20 A. I do not know. I do not know that 21 there was any litigation. I am not aware of any. 22 MR. TOMPA: For the record, there 23 was no litigation. 24 25 BY MS. FARBER: 28 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. Okay. Do you know if the matter is 3 still ongoing? 4 A. I am not sure, to be honest. No, I 5 do not think so. I think the legislation went 6 through. 7 Q. Do you know if Spink, as an 8 organisation, had any interactions with the 9 Ancient Coin Collectors Guild before 2009? 10 A. I would not have thought so, no. 11 Q. You mentioned that you were the 12 vice president of the IAPN? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What have been your other 15 professional associations? 16 A. Again, I was vice chairman of the 17 British Numismatic Trade Association, I was on the 18 anti-forgery committee of the IAPN for a number of 19 years. That is about it in terms of 20 representative bodies. 21 Q. Do you have any current 22 professional associations? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Tell me a bit about -- I would like 25 to talk a bit about Paul Dawson. Who is he? Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 7 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 8 (Pages 29 to 32) 29 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. He is a dealer from the north of 3 the country, who has been in business for a number 4 of years when he was appointed to run the coin 5 department here at Spinks. 6 Q. When did Mr. Dawson begin working 7 at Spink? 8 A. Again, I would need to look into 9 that. I am really not sure. It was only a few 10 years before. I would have thought he came on 11 board in about 2004-5, thereabouts. 12 Q. Do you know what Mr. Dawson's title 13 was when he started at Spink? 14 A. I think he was head of the coin 15 department. 16 Q. Did Mr. Dawson come in as you were 17 dialing down to two days a week? 18 A. Yes, I was already on two days a 19 week when he came on board. 20 Q. Are you familiar with Mr. Dawson's 21 training in ancient coins? 22 A. No, to be honest. All I know is I 23 always knew him -- his father was a coin dealer, 24 still is, and he grew up in the family business, 25 so he was well familiar with especially Roman 30 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 coins. He was a client of ours before he was head 3 hunted, as it were. 4 Q. How many years did you say he had 5 worked in the industry before coming to Spink? By 6 "industry" I mean in the coin industry. 7 A. It is difficult to say. As his 8 father was in the business, I expect he grew up 9 with it so he has been with it all his life. When 10 he joined us I suppose he must have been 40 or 11 thereabouts, so he has had at least two decades in 12 the business before he came here. 13 Q. Are you familiar with Mr. Dawson's 14 relationship with the Ancient Coin Collectors 15 Guild? 16 A. No. 17 Q. How often did you interact with Mr. 18 Dawson? 19 A. I used to see him every day I came 20 in and we would chat about things. He told me he 21 was putting together this package to send over. 22 That is about as much as I know. 23 Q. How many conversations would you 24 say you had with him about putting together this 25 package for the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild? 31 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. I think only one. 3 Q. How is Mr. Dawson's current health? 4 A. Shaky. Shaky, really, to the 5 extent that we have not really pressed him to get 6 involved in this because he is still very much a 7 work in progress as far as his doctors are 8 concerned. 9 Q. What happened to him? 10 A. He was involved in an extremely 11 serious road accident on the motorway. Frankly, 12 he nearly died. He was extremely lucky to have 13 the accident close to a major trauma hospital, to 14 which he was air lifted and spent all night in 15 theatre while they rebuilt his skull. It has 16 taken him an awfully long time to be able to get 17 up and about again. He tried to come down and 18 work and then he had a seizure on his way back and 19 I have not seen him since. 20 Q. How terrible. Do you know how 21 Spink became involved with the invoicing of the 22 coins? I am sorry, let me rephrase that. Do you 23 know how Spink became involved with the Ancient 24 Coin Collectors Guild's effort to export coins in 25 the spring of 2009? 32 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. Only from the e-mail thread that I 3 believe I forwarded you, where I can see that he 4 had a chat with someone at a coin show where this 5 was discussed and he agreed to put together a 6 package to test the new regulations. 7 Q. Let us take a look at that now. 8 Mr. McGregor, this e-mail is USA 6. This is the 9 document marked ACCG 64 to 66. 10 THE COURT REPORTER: Do you want me 11 to mark this as an exhibit? 12 MS. FARBER: Yes, let us mark it as 13 exhibit 1 or would it be easier for you to mark it 14 as exhibit 6? 15 THE COURT REPORTER: I do not mind. 16 I have not premarked anything so you can choose 17 which number. 18 MS. FARBER: Okay. Let us mark it 19 as exhibit 1. 20 (Exhibit 1 was marked for identification) 21 22 BY MS. FARBER: 23 Q. Mr. Pett, you should be looking at 24 a document that in the bottom right says ACCG_ 25 00064 and the last page ends in 66. Do you see Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 8 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 9 (Pages 33 to 36) 33 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recognise this? 5 A. Yes, indeed. 6 Q. What is it? 7 A. It is an e-mail thread I forwarded 8 to you, which I found in doing background for this 9 deposition and which you requested I forward to 10 you. 11 Q. I would like to direct your 12 attention to the second page, which is 65. 13 A. Right. 14 Q. In appears to be an e-mail from 15 Wayne Sayles to Paul Dawson? 16 A. Yes, indeed. 17 Q. With the subject line "Chinese and 18 Cypriot coins". Do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What is NYINC? 21 A. The New York International 22 Numismatic Convention. 23 Q. What is that? 24 A. It is an annual event that has 25 taken place in New York, round about Christmas 34 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 time or early New Year, for at least 30 years, if 3 not 40. 4 Q. Did Paul Dawson talk to you at all 5 about his conversations with Wayne Sayles at the 6 NYINC? 7 A. Yes. In the one conversation I had 8 with him he said that he had been speaking to 9 Wayne and he had asked him to put together this 10 package of coins. That is about it. 11 Q. When you say he had asked him to 12 put together a package of coins, who asked who? 13 A. Wayne asked Paul. 14 Q. Did Paul tell you anything about 15 why Wayne asked him this? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What was that? 18 A. In order to provide a test case for 19 the importation of these things to America. 20 Q. Did Paul tell you anything about 21 why he agreed to do this? 22 A. Yes. It is all of a piece with 23 trying to limit the restrictions that the US was 24 trying to impose on coins, which I was familiar 25 about with the IAPN as well. This was something 35 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 that they felt would clarify the position and give 3 Peter Tompa the opportunity to challenge. 4 Q. Was it typical or common for Spink 5 to participate in challenges to regulations? 6 A. No. If we were asked, prior to any 7 regulations being put in place, we would make 8 representations prior to the event, but I am not 9 aware that we had ever been involved in trying to 10 challenge something once it had been put in place. 11 I cannot remember when the US Government did all 12 this now. It seems such a long time ago and we 13 are talking about -- when were these sent? 1997? 14 No, 2007? No, 2009. Sorry, I have forgotten 15 where I am now. I got lost in a relative clause 16 there. Sorry. 17 Q. That is okay. You have said that 18 Spink would sometimes make representations before 19 -- I did not quite catch the whole sentence. What 20 did you mean by that? 21 A. I was deeply involved in 22 representing the British Numismatic Trade 23 Association when the Treasure Act went through the 24 UK Parliament. We were asked for our input and, 25 generally speaking, the legislation has been put 36 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 into effect in this country to absolutely 3 everybody's satisfaction. 4 Q. What else did Paul Dawson tell you 5 about his conversation with Wayne Sayles at NYINC? 6 A. Nothing. Nothing really. It 7 seemed entirely uncontroversial to me. 8 Q. Did you talk to Wayne Sayles at all 9 about this ---- 10 A. No. I have not spoken to Wayne in, 11 as I say, 12 years. 12 Q. Why is that? 13 A. Because I have not been to America 14 in 12 years. 15 Q. Do you communicate with Wayne 16 Sayles by any other means? 17 A. No, no, no. I have never done any 18 serious business with him. He was always regarded 19 as a minor player. 20 Q. What do you mean by that? 21 A. We are a large company. We used to 22 have a stock of nearly £1 million, so we were 23 working at the high end, whereas Wayne was always 24 a one-man band with modest stock. I always 25 regarded him more as a collector than a dealer. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 9 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 10 (Pages 37 to 40) 37 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. You said something about modest 3 stock. Does Wayne Sayles have a company? 4 A. I do not know, to be perfectly 5 honest. He often had coins for sale. Whether 6 they were his own, just from his private 7 collection, I do not know but ---- 8 Q. In this e-mail on page 65, Mr. 9 Sayles mentions: "... your kind offer to supply 10 an assortment of coins for a test of the import 11 restrictions imposed on ancient coins of Cyprus 12 and China." Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did Paul Dawson talk to you about 15 what his offer was? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What did you say? 18 A. I think he asked me if we had any 19 ancient Cypriot coins lying around, of little 20 value, that we could send to the States with the 21 full expectation they would be seized. 22 Q. What was your response? 23 A. As far as I can recall, I said we 24 probably have done if you care to sort through 25 boxes of low grade coins that we used to have 38 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 here, but I was not aware of -- I could not lay my 3 hands on them there and then. 4 Q. What else did you talk about with 5 Mr. Dawson -- 6 A. Nothing, really. 7 Q. -- with regards to this 8 conversation? 9 A. Nothing, really, about this. He 10 just merely mentioned that he was doing it because 11 he knew that I had been involved on bodies talking 12 about this very subject, so he was just keeping me 13 informed of what he was up to. 14 Q. Was it your understanding that 15 Wayne Sayles asked Spink for its assistance or 16 that Spink offered its assistance to the Guild? 17 A. No, the other way round I think. 18 He was asked by Wayne whether he would do it and 19 he replied "yes", hence his "kind offer to supply 20 an assortment of coins" etcetera. 21 Q. I would like to direct your 22 attention to the bottom of that same page ACCG_65. 23 Mr. Sayles says: "Could you please assemble this 24 group and send photographs and descriptions by 25 e-mail, along with an invoice to an the Ancient 39 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Coin Collectors Guild as buyer." Was does it mean 3 the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild as the buyer of 4 the coins? 5 MR. TOMPA: This is Peter. I am 6 going to object. I think you are asking for a 7 speculation because it is a document that was not 8 even sent to Mr. Pett. It was between Mr. Dawson 9 and Mr. Sayles. You are going to take Mr. Sayles' 10 deposition later on, why don't you ask him then? 11 12 BY MS. FARBER: 13 Q. Okay. Mr. Pett, you can answer. 14 What does it mean that the Ancient Coin Collectors 15 Guild would be listed as the buyer on the invoice? 16 A. Every invoice we write has to be 17 addressed to somebody. In this instance it was 18 the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild. 19 Q. When someone is listed as a buyer 20 on an invoice, does that indicate that they have 21 purchased the coins? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. If someone did not actually 24 purchase the coins but the coins were being 25 gifted, would the invoice say anything different 40 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 other than "buyer"? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So the invoice would still say 5 "buyer" if the coins were being gifted? 6 A. It does not say "buyer". The first 7 line of any invoice, any documentation you send 8 anywhere, has to have who the recipient is. 9 Q. If somebody was recipient of goods 10 from Spink but they did not pay for them, would 11 the term "buyer" be used for them or would another 12 term be used? 13 A. No. I think buyer would be -- it 14 is a reasonable first line of, as I say, any bit 15 of formal document. 16 Q. Did Paul talk to you at all about 17 his effort to locate coins for this export? 18 A. No, not really. All my knowledge 19 of that is derived from reading the e-mail 20 threads. 21 Q. Were there any e-mail threads that 22 you read that you did not send to me? 23 A. No, I do not think so. Not that 24 I have found anyway. 25 Q. There was nothing related to this Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 10 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 11 (Pages 41 to 44) 41 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 matter that you look at that you did not ---- 3 A. No. I sent you all the things I 4 could find in relation to this package. 5 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. I know 6 it is a lot of work to go through old e-mails. I 7 would like to direct your attention to a different 8 document now. Mr. McGregor, I will be referring 9 to the document that was marked for identification 10 as USA 8, which is ACCG 99 through 103. I would 11 like to mark that as exhibit 2. 12 THE COURT REPORTER: Marked and 13 handed to the witness. 14 (Exhibit 2 was marked for identification) 15 16 BY MS. FARBER: 17 Q. Mr. Pett, I would like to direct 18 your attention to the e-mail at the very top of 19 page 99? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. This is an e-mail from Paul Dawson 22 to Peter Tompa and Wayne Sayles, cc'ing Bill 23 Puetz? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. P-U-E-T-Z. In this e-mail Mr. 42 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Dawson says that he has managed to "locate 5 x AE 3 Cypriot coins"? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What does that mean? 6 A. 5 times AE, which is short for aes, 7 meaning bronze. 8 Q. It is short for what? 9 A. AE is short for bronze. It is 10 short for aes, which is the Latin for bronze. It 11 is standard numismatic terminology to distinguish 12 between bronze coins and silver coins and gold 13 coins. 14 Q. Did Mr. Dawson talk to you at all 15 about his effort to find these coins? 16 A. No, not really. I knew he was 17 looking for them but I did not know -- I do not 18 know where he managed to locate them, frankly. He 19 might have found them here, I do not know. They 20 are such low grade items, they are of very limited 21 value and, as I say, we used to have boxes of 22 coins of similarly low value here that we would 23 literally toss coins into from time to time when 24 they were not worth selling individually. 25 Q. How were you aware that Mr. Dawson 43 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 was looking for these coins? 3 A. Because he mentioned that he had 4 been talking to Wayne Sayles and he had been asked 5 to find some. 6 Q. Was that the same conversation that 7 we were talking about earlier? 8 A. Yes, absolutely. 9 Q. What else did Mr. Dawson tell you 10 about his efforts to find coins for the Guild? 11 A. Nothing. As I mentioned, I was 12 only here two days a week, whereas he was full 13 time and ---- 14 Q. Did you play any role in helping to 15 find the coins for the Guild? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Mr. McGregor, I will be referring 18 to the document that was marked for identification 19 as USA 4, which is Bates stamped ACCG 44 to 47. I 20 would like to mark that now as exhibit 3. 21 THE COURT REPORTER: Marked and 22 handed to the witness. 23 (Exhibit 3 was marked for identification) 24 25 BY MS. FARBER: 44 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pett, I would like 3 to direct your attention to page 46, which is the 4 second to last page of this document. 5 A. Very good. 6 Q. I am sorry, before I ask you this 7 question, in the document we were previously 8 looking at, exhibit 2, there is a person cc'd 9 named Bill Puetz? 10 A. Yes, I am afraid I do not know this 11 gentleman at all. 12 Q. Do you know what the domain name of 13 his e-mail is? It says vcoins.com. 14 A. VCoins is a site where individuals 15 can advertise coins for sale, so he must be ---- 16 Q. Go on? 17 A. So he must be involved with VCoins 18 in some way, I assume. 19 Q. Do you know why he was included in 20 these e-mails? 21 A. I do not, to be honest. I can only 22 guess. Maybe he is a member of the Guild as well, 23 I do not know. I am not familiar with the 24 gentleman. 25 Q. Okay. Directing your attention Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 11 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 12 (Pages 45 to 48) 45 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 back to exhibit 3, page 46, this appears to be an 3 e-mail from Wayne Sayles to Paul Dawson, cc'ing 4 Peter Tompa. Do you see that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What is Wayne communicating in this 7 e-mail? 8 MR. TOMPA: I am going to object 9 because I think the document speaks for itself, 10 but he can answer. 11 A. As I am reading it now ---- 12 13 BY MS. FARBER: 14 Q. I will rephrase my question. Mr. 15 Sayles says "the coins sent to you from Canada". 16 He refers to the coins sent to you from Canada. 17 Do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What coins does that refer to? 20 A. I think it was just the Chinese 21 coins. We did not have any suitable material 22 here, so he presumably found somebody else to 23 supply them. 24 Q. Those Chinese coins were sent to 25 Spink from Canada? 46 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. I presume so. 3 Q. How were you aware that Spink was 4 not able to find Chinese coins? 5 A. Only from reading through this 6 e-mail thread. 7 Q. Did you talk to Paul Dawson about 8 Chinese coins that would be provided to the 9 Ancient Coin Collectors Guild? 10 A. No. As I say, in the one 11 conversation I had with him I think he mentioned 12 he was having difficulty finding some low grade 13 Chinese material to put into the package. 14 Q. For clarification, if I refer to 15 the Guild, you understand that I am referring to 16 the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild? 17 A. Yes, indeed. 18 Q. Okay. Just to make sure. When 19 these Chinese coins were received at Spink, do you 20 know if anybody counted them? 21 A. I have no knowledge. 22 Q. Would that have been standard 23 procedure at Spink, to count coins once received? 24 A. I suppose so. If you receive an 25 invoice, it presumably said how many coins were on 47 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 it so if the numbers did not tally he would have 3 been on the e-mail to query it. 4 Q. Was it your standard practice, upon 5 receiving a shipment of coins, to count them? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you do that for every shipment? 8 A. Generally speaking, yes. 9 Q. You said "generally speaking". 10 Were there some shipments were you did not count 11 the coins? 12 A. They will be counted at some stage, 13 but when they first arrive -- if you have just 14 received a package where somebody says they have 15 279 coins in there, I would not necessarily say 16 that we would immediately sit down and count every 17 one there and then, but when we get to work on 18 them then we would notice whether the numbers were 19 accurate or not. 20 Q. While the Chinese coins were in 21 Spink's possession, do you know if anyone 22 confirmed their authenticity? 23 A. Presumably, Paul did. I am not 24 sure that we have an expert in Chinese coins now, 25 but you do not need to be around ancient coins 48 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 terribly long to recognise encrustations and 3 obviously genuine items. 4 Q. Did anyone at Spink confirm that 5 the coins sent from Canada were accurately 6 described? 7 A. I would think that Paul probably 8 took it as read that they were what it said on the 9 invoice. 10 Q. What makes you say that? 11 A. Because he is no expert in Chinese 12 coins. 13 Q. In this e-mail Mr. Sayles says: 14 "The coins were donated but we will still have to 15 place some value on them for the shipping and 16 customs forms. The actual value attached means 17 nothing." Then he goes on to say: "It is really 18 just a formality." Do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What do you take that to mean? 21 MR. TOMPA: I am going to object 22 because I think you are just asking him to 23 speculate what that means. You could ask Mr. 24 Sayles what that meant when you take his 25 deposition. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 12 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 13 (Pages 49 to 52) 49 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 3 BY MS. FARBER: 4 Q. What do you take that to mean, Mr. 5 Pett? 6 A. It means that, as he says, the 7 coins were of a very low value in view of their 8 poor state of preservation. 9 Q. Did you talk to Paul Dawson about 10 how to value these coins? 11 A. No, not at all. 12 Q. Did Paul Dawson talk to you at all 13 about it? 14 A. No, he would not ask me. He knows 15 I know nothing about Chinese coins either. 16 Q. What is Spink's procedure for 17 valuing coins that are of not much worth? 18 A. Valuing for what purpose? 19 Q. For the purposes of listing a price 20 on an invoice. How does Spink value low value 21 coins? 22 A. Generally speaking, in terms of 23 what you think you can get for them. In this 24 instance, a nominal value was asked to be placed 25 on them and he appears to have complied. As I 50 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 say, all coins -- there is no such thing as a true 3 value of an ancient coin. An ancient coin is 4 worth as much as you can persuade someone to give 5 you for it. 6 Q. What do you mean by "nominal 7 value"? 8 A. Sorry, I cannot recall my using 9 that in -- nominal is a low standing. What are 10 they? £2 each, £1 each, £5 each. That is 11 generally how one values the low grade material. 12 It is just a vague assessment. 13 Q. How would one decide whether low 14 grade material was £1 or £5? How do you come up 15 with a value? 16 A. It is all a question of how 17 complete, how attractive the item is. Is it a 18 collectible item or is it really just a lump of 19 old metal that has come out of the ground with 20 very little detail on it, in which case the latter 21 would be in at a very low value, a nominal value 22 say, of £1, which tends to be because it is the 23 lowest denomination we have over here that is the 24 lowest value you can put on a coin. 25 Q. The coins that were sent from 51 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Canada, which I understand to be the Chinese 3 coins, were they of the lowest value in your 4 understanding? 5 A. They looked fairly ropey. I only 6 have the e-mail copies of the photographs for them 7 but, as I say, I do not know much about Chinese 8 coins but they looked pretty low grade to me, if 9 not broken. 10 Q. So a nominal value for those coins 11 would be, you would say, £1 each? 12 A. I would not like to say. I can 13 only really talk about the Greek and the Roman on 14 those, but generally -- please, ask somebody else. 15 Ask the gentleman who sent them. 16 Q. Okay. Mr. Sayles goes on to say -- 17 he says: "The actual value attached means nothing 18 because the objects are very low value to begin 19 with." What do you take that to mean? 20 A. It is not terribly clear is it. I 21 presume he wants us to put a figure on it, on the 22 entire package I would have thought, that can be 23 used for this deposition, for this case. 24 Q. Did you talk to Paul Dawson about 25 that aspect at all, the actual value ---- 52 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. No. I really was not involved in 3 drafting the invoice. 4 Q. Okay. He says: "If you would 5 determine the cost and any charges for the coins 6 provided by Spink and somehow apportion that to 7 include the coins from Canada, I would very much 8 appreciate it." What does that mean? 9 MR. TOMPA: I am going to object 10 again because I think you are asking him to 11 speculate, but he can answer it if he can. 12 A. I do not know. Again, as Peter 13 says, I would be speculating there. It is not the 14 most clear English I have ever read. 15 16 BY MS. FARBER: 17 Q. It looks to me like he is saying 18 that the coins should be priced based on Spink's 19 costs and not on their value. Is that possible? 20 MR. TOMPA: I am going to object 21 because, again, you are calling for speculation. 22 23 BY MS. FARBER: 24 Q. You can answer, Mr. Pett. 25 A. I do not know. I assume he wanted Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 13 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 14 (Pages 53 to 56) 53 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 us to put a figure on the coins that reflected our 3 costs in getting hold of them and shipping them 4 over. 5 Q. If a price on an invoice reflected 6 Spink's costs and not the price that the coin 7 could get on the market, would that price be the 8 fair market value? 9 A. Looking at the pictures of the 10 coins that are included in the e-mail, I would say 11 that the putative selling price put on the invoice 12 was on the high side but, on the other hand, in 13 terms of -- as I say, when you sell a coin, a coin 14 is worth as much as you can persuade someone to 15 give you for it. There is no hard and fast 16 pricing of coins. 17 Q. If the value assigned to a coin on 18 an invoice was connected to Spink's costs and 19 charges, would that reflect the fair market value 20 of that coin? 21 MR. TOMPA: Objection. Asked and 22 answered. Calls for speculation. 23 24 BY MS. FARBER: 25 Q. You can go ahead and answer, Mr. 54 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Pett. 3 A. No. The cost to us of the coin and 4 what we sell it at are two entirely different 5 things. 6 Q. How so? 7 A. You have to make a profit. 8 Q. So Spink's costs and the price of 9 the coin are different? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Would you agree that Spink's costs 12 and the value of the coin are different? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Let us take a look at the document 15 that was marked for identification as USA 5, which 16 is ACCG 62 to 63. Before I go on, Mr. Pett we 17 have been going for about an hour. Are you okay 18 to continue or do you need a break? 19 A. I do not need a break, but if you 20 can give me a 30 second break I just want to go 21 and top up my glass of water. 22 Q. Okay. 23 MR. TOMPA: Molissa, would you mind 24 if I had a two minute break? 25 MS. FARBER: Sure. Why don't we go 55 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 off the record. 3 (Off the record at 3.25pm) 4 (Back on the record at 3.28) 5 6 BY MS. FARBER: 7 Q. I would like to mark as exhibit 4 8 the document starting ACCG 62 to 63. 9 (Exhibit 4 was marked for identification) 10 A. Yes, I have it. 11 Q. Do you recognise this document? 12 A. Yes, indeed. 13 Q. What is it? 14 A. It is a copy of an invoice relating 15 to the shipment to the Ancient Coin Collectors 16 Guild. It is our account's department electronic 17 invoice on the first sheet and a more detailed 18 breakdown to accompany it on the second. 19 Q. Is this a document of a type that 20 has been regularly prepared? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Does this look to be authentic? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. On page 62 the price listed for 25 these coins of 185, is that the value in pounds? 56 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. That is the invoice total in 3 pounds, yes. 4 Q. What does "invoice total" mean? 5 A. It is the theoretical selling 6 price. 7 Q. Did you say the theoretical selling 8 price? 9 A. Well, the actual selling price in 10 terms of -- as say I, we were asked to put a 11 nominal value on the coins and this is Paul 12 putting a value on the coins for customs purposes. 13 Q. Turning to page 63, what does 14 "schedule of contents" mean? 15 A. It relates to the coins that were 16 included in the shipment. 17 Q. Do you know who came up with the 18 description for these items? 19 A. I assume Paul did, probably copying 20 what he was sent with the Chinese coins and adding 21 descriptions to the Cypriot coins. 22 Q. Did you talk to him at all about 23 applying descriptions to the coins? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you have any role in writing Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 14 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 15 (Pages 57 to 60) 57 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 this invoice? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you review this invoice before 5 it was mailed? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did Mr. Dawson talk to you about 8 the invoice? 9 A. No, not about the invoice. No, no, 10 merely what the enterprise was. 11 Q. What did he say about the 12 enterprise? 13 A. As I have said before, that we have 14 been asked to put together a package of Chinese 15 and Cypriot coins in order to provide in a test 16 case. 17 Q. How many conversations do you 18 recall having with Mr. Dawson about the test case? 19 A. I think only ---- 20 MR. TOMPA: Objection. 21 A. Only the one, I think. 22 23 BY MS. FARBER: 24 Q. Looking at the first item, it says: 25 "(7) China, unattributed bronze coins, more than 58 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 100 years old." Do you see that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What does the number 7 indicate 5 there? 6 A. I assume that is the number of 7 coins. 8 Q. On what do you base that 9 assumption? 10 A. I cannot think what else it is 11 there for. I can only speculate along with you. 12 Q. You have written invoices for Spink 13 before? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Would you include the quantity in a 18 similar format as Mr. Dawson has done here? 19 A. I would certainly include the 20 numbers, not necessarily as the first item on the 21 thing, on the invoice, but certainly in terms of 22 the numbers because otherwise one might expect it 23 to be stopped by customs if the invoice does not 24 match the number of items that are supposed to be 25 in there. 59 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. What does "unattributed bronze 3 coins more than 100 years old" mean? 4 A. It means that nobody was able to 5 say particularly where they came from, where they 6 were issued from and the fact that they were 100 7 years old -- we have been sending coins to the 8 States for as long as I have been in the business 9 and it is important to mention that they are over 10 100 years old. 11 Q. Why is that? 12 A. Because then they do not -- I 13 remember they do not then attract any import tax 14 or minimal import tax. 15 Q. I see on page 62, a line for 16 "standard VAT" and "import VAT". Do you see that? 17 A. Which line? 18 Q. On page 62 there is a column 19 "standard VAT" and "import VAT"? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What does that refer to? 22 A. As I say, it is a template there 23 because certain coins attract -- value added tax 24 we have over here, currently at 20%. If the coins 25 are less than 100 years old, I think, we have to 60 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 charge on top of the selling price 20% VAT, which 3 is not applicable in this case because the coins 4 were being exported. 5 Q. If these coins had been less than 6 100 years old the tax would have applied? 7 A. Yes. I would not want to be quoted 8 on the exact figure. I think it is 100. It might 9 even be 50. I am not up-to-date with it, but 10 certainly modern issues attract VAT. 11 Q. To summarise, listing the coins as 12 more than 100 years old that was for purposes of 13 the value added tax? 14 A. Yes, it is a standard mantra for 15 all sendings out. Most countries do not charge 16 tax on collectible items. 17 Q. Do you know why these particular 18 certain coins, the unattributed bronze coins more 19 than 100 years old, do you know why those were 20 included in the shipment? 21 A. No. As I say, I know absolutely 22 nothing about Chinese coins in general and this 23 shipment included. 24 Q. Did you have any discussions with 25 anyone about that particular group of coins, the Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 15 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 16 (Pages 61 to 64) 61 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 unattributed bronze coins more than 100 years old? 3 A. No. I know nothing about them and 4 there is nobody here who would ever ask me. 5 Q. Why do you say that? 6 A. Because I do not know anything 7 about Chinese coins. 8 Q. Was there anyone at Spink at the 9 time who did know about Chinese coins? 10 A. No, only in a very generalised 11 sense. We have books here where you can look the 12 things up, I suppose, but I have no idea how to 13 read Chinese script. 14 Q. Let us look at the Chinese coins 15 listed on this invoice. It looks to me like they 16 are the certain unattributed bronze coins, the 17 first line, with the fair market value of 21. Do 18 you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Then the second line, two Chinese 21 coins with a fair market value of $25. Do you see 22 that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Then there is one Chinese coin with 25 a fair market value of $10, correct? 62 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. No, I cannot see that one. Oh yes, 3 there is one at $10. Yes, there is the Zhou 4 Dynasty. 5 Q. Right. Then there are three from 6 the Han Dynasty, with a fair market value of $5? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Then three from the Western Han 9 Dynasty, fair market value of $9. Do you see 10 that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Altogether, those Chinese coins add 13 up to a fair market value of $74, is that correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Does that strike you as an accurate 16 fair market value? 17 A. As I say, do not ask me about 18 Chinese coins. I do not know anything about them. 19 MR. TOMPA: Right. That is my 20 objection. I think it is asked and answered 21 multiple times. 22 23 BY MS. FARBER: 24 Q. You mentioned earlier about the 25 value listed for the Chinese coins struck you as 63 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 being on the high side. Do you recall that? 3 A. No. It was more regarding the 4 entire package, including the Cypriot, which was 5 the only area I have expertise in on this list. 6 Q. Okay. Let us take a look at the -- 7 I would like you to keep that invoice in front of 8 you, Mr. Pett. We are going to look at another 9 document that was premarked as USA 7. This is 10 Bates stamped ACCG 94 to 95. I would like to mark 11 that now as exhibit 5. 12 THE COURT REPORTER: Marked and 13 handed to the witness. 14 (Exhibit 5 was marked for identification) 15 16 BY MS. FARBER: 17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pett, I am showing 18 you an e-mail from a person named Robert 19 Kokotalio? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. To Wayne Sayles. Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. It is dated March 31st 2009? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Mr. Kokotalio's e-mail address has 64 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 the domain Calgarycoins.com. Do you see that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Are you familiar with Calgary 5 Coins? 5 6 A. I am familiar with -- I have seen 7 the name before in trade publications, but I 8 cannot say I have ever done any business with 9 them. 10 Q. What is Calgary Coins? 11 A. It is a coin company in Canada. 12 Q. Are you familiar with Robert 13 Kokotalio? 14 A. No, I am not aware I have ever met 15 him. 16 Q. Mr. Kokotalio's e-mail says he has 17 attached the image of the coins he will be 18 sending. Do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Does this indicate to you that Mr. 21 Kokotalio sent the Chinese coins to Spink or that 22 he said he was the source of the Chinese coins? 23 A. I believe he was. 24 Q. How do you pronounce Z-H-O-U? Is 25 that "shoo" Dynasty? Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 16 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 17 (Pages 65 to 68) 65 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. Again, your guess is as good as 3 mine. That sounds good to me. 4 Q. Okay. Let us say that. He lists 5 the Zhou Dynasty coins, Zhou Dynasty knife-shaped 6 coins, circa 300 BC? 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q. "Zhou Dynasty pointed foot spade 9 shaped coin circa 400 BC and three Han Dynasty 10 coins and 3 Western Han Dynasty coins." Do you 11 see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Looking back at the invoice, he 14 describes all of the Chinese coins except for 15 those first seven unattributed bronze coins, is 16 that correct? 17 A. Yes. It looks like it, yes. 18 Q. Do you know where those seven 19 unattributed coins came from? 20 A. I have no idea. 21 Q. The value that he describes for the 22 coins, he says the "entire lot probably is worth 23 less than $25". Do you see that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Directing your attention to the 66 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 invoice, if we just look at the coins that Mr. 3 Kokotalio has described, excluding those first 4 seven, the value listed on invoice for these coins 5 adds up to 53 US dollars, is that right? 6 A. I will take your word for it. I am 7 doing mental arithmetic as you speak. 8 Q. You can take a moment and do the 9 math. 10 A. 74 I got to. Is that right? 11 Q. If you exclude those first seven. 12 A. Yes. Okay, yes. Carry on. 13 Q. Did you get 53 as well, $53? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Mr. Kokotalio says that these coins 16 are worth -- he says the entire lot probably is 17 worth less than $25? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You would agree that that same 20 entire lot is listed on this invoice as being 21 worth $53, is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt the 24 accuracy of Mr. Kokotalio's value? 25 A. No, not really. In terms of 67 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 interdealer talk, what a dealer would pay for them 3 as a lot might well only be about $25, but if you 4 can find individual customers for each one then, 5 as he says, the fair market value would then 6 apply. 7 Q. As far as you know, were there any 8 individual customers for any of these coins? 9 A. I would not have thought so, which 10 is why so much of this material is traded in bulk 11 between dealers, in the hope that in the process 12 someone will be found to collect them at the end 13 of the day. 14 Q. So Mr. Kokotalio's valuation of 15 less than $25 for the entire lot, you do not take 16 any issue with that valuation do you? 17 A. No, not really. Not at all, no. 18 Q. It strikes you as a correct 19 valuation? 20 A. I have no reason to doubt it. 21 Q. The value listed on this invoice, 22 ACCG 63, that is higher than the fair market 23 value, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you know why Mr. Dawson included 68 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 a higher value for those coins? 3 A. No, not really. Perhaps he was 4 just applying a Spink mark up. 5 Q. A Spink mark up, what is that? 6 A. An increase over cost which equates 7 to profit. 8 Q. To your knowledge, was Spink making 9 a profit on ---- 10 A. I have no means of knowing. I do 11 not even know if money changed hands in this. 12 This was put together for the purposes of trying 13 to challenge the regulations. 14 Q. Would it be typical for Spink to 15 try to make a profit on such a transaction if it 16 was for the purpose of challenging the 17 regulations? 18 A. No, not really. As I say, I have 19 no means of knowing whether he expected to be paid 20 anything at all. I would regard this as a 21 business expense. 22 Q. Let us take a look at another 23 document. This was premarked as USA 9. It is 24 ACCG 31. I would like to mark that as exhibit 6. 25 THE COURT REPORTER: Marked and Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 17 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 18 (Pages 69 to 72) 69 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 handed to the witness. 3 (Exhibit 6 was marked for identification) 4 5 BY MS. FARBER: 6 Q. Thank you, Mr. McGregor. 7 A. Oh, how lovely. 8 Q. Do you recognise this document? 9 A. No, I have not seen it before. 10 Q. What does it appear to be? 11 A. It appears to suggest that a check 12 was enclosed to pay for the coins and for Paul's 13 time and efforts, which they did not expect to be 14 paid for but we would make a donation to some 15 numismatic good works in this country. 16 Q. You said that the $275 dollar 17 payment included the costs of Paul's work? 18 A. Yes, I would imagine so. 19 Q. What makes you say that? 20 A. Because of the difference between 21 fair market value and what the price on the 22 invoice was. 23 Q. Let us look at the invoice one more 24 time. That is exhibit 4, page ACCG 63? 25 A. Yes. 70 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. At the bottom of that page it says: 3 "Total 23 items FMC USD $275". Do you see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What does FMV stand for? 6 A. I must confess I heard you use the 7 expression a moment ago, "Fair market value". 8 Q. Yes. Thank you. Fair market value 9 does not include Spink's costs, is that right? 10 A. What do you mean "include our 11 costs"? It would cover our costs. 12 Q. The fair market value of an item I 13 believe you said is what you can expect someone to 14 pay for it, is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Referring back to exhibit 6 -- this 17 is page 31 -- Mr. Sayles says: "If you wish to 18 donate a like amount to the ACCG Museum Fund ..." 19 and then he provides instructions for doing that? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. What do you take that to mean? 22 MR. TOMPA: I am going to object. 23 Wait a second, John. I am going to object again 24 because again you are asking for speculation. It 25 speaks for itself. You can ask Wayne Sayles when 71 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 you take his deposition because he actually read 3 the document. Paul is not with us, so I think you 4 are just asking for speculation here. 5 6 BY MS. FARBER: 7 Q. Okay. Mr. Pett, you can answer. 8 What do you take that to mean? 9 A. Exactly what it says. It looks 10 like they enclosed a check for $275, which they 11 invited Paul to endorse on the back and send back 12 to them and donate it to the museum fund. I have 13 no means of knowing whether he endorsed it or 14 whether he trousered the check. I just do not 15 know. 16 Q. Is it typical for Spink to sell 17 coins and then give the money back to the 18 purchaser? 19 MR. TOMPA: I am going to object. 20 That mischaracterizes what the letter says. It 21 does not say that you are giving it back to them, 22 you are saying it is going to a fund. 23 24 BY MS. FARBER: 25 Q. Okay. I will rephrase. That is a 72 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 fair objection. Is this type of transaction 3 typical for Spink, where -- is this type of 4 transaction typical for Spink? 5 A. No, I would not say it is typical. 6 It is quite unusual. 7 Q. Do you have an understanding of why 8 it was structured this way? 9 A. We were just trying to help our 10 colleagues in clarifying the legal position in 11 America, in this instance, and for a modest outlay 12 we are more than happy to contribute in this way. 13 Q. Is it fair to say that Spink 14 donated its time and these coins to the Guild? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Are you aware of whether Spink had 17 an involvement in the appraisal of the coins by 18 the United States Government after they were 19 seized? 20 A. No, I know nothing beyond that one 21 conversation I had with Paul when I knew he was 22 putting this package together. 23 Q. I would like to direct your 24 attention to a new document. This is the document 25 marked for identification as USA 3, which I would Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 18 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 19 (Pages 73 to 76) 73 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 now like to mark as exhibit 7. This goes from 3 ACCG 23 to ACCG 28. 4 THE COURT REPORTER: Exhibit marked 5 and handed to the witness. 6 (Exhibit 7 was marked for identification) 7 8 BY MS. FARBER: 9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pett, if you will 10 take a look at the e-mail message at the bottom of 11 page 23, going on to 24. That is from Martin 12 Fuller to John Winchcombe. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who is John Winchcombe? 15 A. He is in charge of our post room 16 here. He deals with all matters of sending coins 17 out and receiving them. 18 Q. Is Mr. Winchcombe a -- does he work 19 under the ancient coins division of Spink or does 20 he work in the mail room or something else? 21 A. As I say, in the mail room, yes. 22 Q. Mr. Fuller requests from Mr. 23 Winchcombe assistance in assessing the current 24 values of the items pictured in the attached 25 images. Do you see that at the bottom of 23? 74 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Then, if you go to pages 25 to 28, 4 are those presumably the attached images of the 5 coins? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you ever see these coins in 8 person? 9 A. No. I must confess I have seen 10 them from these images. 11 Q. The coins are pictured with 12 envelopes that are labelled Spink. Do you see 13 that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is that typically how Spink sends 16 coins of this type? 17 A. Yes, absolutely. 18 Q. If you look at the top of page 23, 19 there is an e-mail from Paul Dawson to Wayne 20 Sayles. Do you see that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. In this e-mail Paul says to Wayne: 23 "Please remind me what you want me to put as 24 values etc." Do you see that? 25 A. Yes. 75 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. Does this indicate to you that Mr. 3 Dawson was asking Mr. Sayles what the coin values 4 should be? 5 MR. TOMPA: I am going to object. I 6 think it calls for speculation. The document 7 speaks for itself. 8 9 BY MS. FARBER: 10 Q. You can answer, Mr. Pett. 11 A. I do not know. I can only guess. 12 I can only guess so, you know, I suspect he wanted 13 to know, "Do you want us to put a value on it you 14 would expect a dealer to pay or whether you are 15 going to price them all individually and come up 16 with a larger figure?" But, as I say, Wayne will 17 be able to answer that because I do not know -- 18 maybe over the page I will see what Paul replies, 19 I do not know. 20 Q. Any time I ask you that kind of 21 question you can answer to the best of your 22 recollection or to the best of your knowledge? 23 A. Very good. 24 Q. I can go from there. Is it correct 25 that you have put together appraisals for Spink 76 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 before? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. I believe that you mentioned that 5 in putting together an appraisal you consulted a 6 number of sources, is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is it unusual to ask the buyer what 9 the value of coins should be? 10 A. In this instance, as I say the 11 purpose of this was to put together a package that 12 would be seized at customs, so I suspect he was 13 merely asking, "Do you want me to put the 14 wholesale or the retail of these items?" Again, 15 as I say, I can only speculate and no doubt Wayne 16 will be able to fill in some of the details. 17 Q. If you were assembling an appraisal 18 outside of this context for an actual buyer who 19 wanted the coins for themselves and not to test 20 any kind of regulations, would you ask that buyer 21 for the value of the coins or would you use a 22 different process to come up with the value? 23 A. I would put a selling price on the 24 coins that I am selling and that would be what 25 would go on the invoice. I would not consult him Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 19 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 20 (Pages 77 to 80) 77 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 at all. 3 Q. How would you come up with that 4 selling price? 5 A. Through my experience of what such 6 items should sell for, based on experience of 7 having sold similar items before and what I had 8 seen similar items sell for in the auction rooms. 9 Q. Who is David Guest? He is cc'd on 10 John Winchcombe's e-mail to Paul Dawson. 11 A. He was another employee of the coin 12 department at the time, who specialised in English 13 hammered coins. 14 Q. Do you know why he was cc'd on this 15 e-mail? 16 A. I suspect because John Winchcombe 17 perhaps did not know whether it was Paul Dawson or 18 David Guest that was involved. They were two of 19 the main full-time employees here, so why he was 20 included I do not know. I would have to ask John 21 Winchcombe that. 22 Q. Earlier you mentioned an employee 23 of the coin department named Max Tursi. Do you 24 remember that? 25 A. Yes. 78 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. I believe you mentioned that the 3 people who were working in the coin department in 4 2009 were you two days a week, Paul Dawson and Max 5 Tursi? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When did David Guest begin working 8 with the coin department? 9 MR. TOMPA: I am going to object 10 because that mischaracterises his testimony. 11 MS. FARBER: Are you done, Peter? 12 MR. TOMPA: Yes. 13 14 BY MS. FARBER: 15 Q. Mr. Pett, when did David Guest 16 begin working for the coin department? 17 A. I really do not know. I would have 18 to go and speak to human resources to find that 19 out. I really do not know. 20 Q. Do you want to modify your earlier 21 answer about who was working in the coin 22 department during this period of time or are you 23 still pretty sure that it was just Max Tursi, you 24 and Paul Dawson? 25 A. When I said that I was talking 79 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 about ancient coins. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Which is, you know, separate to the 5 others. David Guest was never involved in our 6 area because he was a specialist in hammered 7 coins. 8 Q. I see. There is an ancient coins 9 division and that was you, Mr. Tursi and Mr. 10 Dawson? 11 A. Yes. He was general overview in 12 charge of the whole department, but his area of 13 expertise was ancient coins and English coins. He 14 was more of a generalist. 15 Q. Okay. Then there were other coin 16 divisions at Spink? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. So David Guest worked for a 19 different coin division than the ancient coins? 20 A. Yes, but we are all in the same 21 room. We used to have separate rooms but now we 22 have gone to an open plan office. As I say, David 23 Guest's involvement in this conversation is a red 24 herring. He is nothing to do with anything in 25 this case. 80 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. Right. I understand. 3 A. It is just John Winchcombe is not 4 necessarily au fait with who is in charge of what 5 and when. 6 MS. FARBER: Okay. I would like to 7 take a brief five minute break and then I think I 8 am just about done. 9 MR. TOMPA: Okay. Just so you know, 10 John, I probably have maybe five or 10 minutes of 11 just follow-up questions. 12 A. Very good. 13 MS. FARBER: Okay. Let us go off 14 the record. 15 (Off the record at 4.05pm) 16 (Back on the record at 4.10pm) 17 18 BY MS. FARBER: 19 Q. Mr. Pett, I just have a couple of 20 last questions here. What would you estimate as 21 the number of invoices you have written during 22 your time at Spink? 23 A. Good grief. Three or four a day 24 for 40 years. What does that come to? 25 Q. We can do the math on that one. Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 20 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 21 (Pages 81 to 84) 81 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 What would you estimate as the number of packages 3 of coins you have shipped during that time? 4 A. Certainly in the thousands. 5 Q. Does it sometimes happen that a 6 coin will be misplaced before it is shipped? 7 A. No. I certainly do not recall any 8 such instance. 9 Q. Have you ever heard of an instance 10 where a purchaser contacted Spink because they 11 were missing a coin? 12 A. That has happened before, yes. 13 That is certainly true. 14 Q. How many times? 15 A. I can certainly recall several 16 instances where people claim that a coin was not 17 in the package, in which instance we obviously 18 checked to make sure that there is not something 19 lying around here but we, generally speaking, 20 assume that they are trying to avoid paying for 21 it. 22 Q. Can you recall any instances where 23 the customer was correct and there was a coin 24 missing? 25 A. Not specifically, no. 82 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. Can you recall generally something 3 like that happening? 4 A. No, generally speaking. Sometimes 5 you just end up having to write it off. It is all 6 a question of who the customer is. 7 Q. What do you mean by that? 8 A. If he was an important customer and 9 he was reporting that a modestly priced coin was 10 missing from a package, we may decide to write it 11 off for the sake of goodwill, but generally 12 speaking we would suspect that postmen might have 13 helped themselves to it or it had been opened en 14 route. That has certainly happened before. 15 Q. The invoice that we have been 16 discussing today, which was marked as exhibit 4, 17 ACCG 62 to 63, who wrote that invoice? 18 A. I imagine that was generated, under 19 dictation from Paul Dawson, by the assistant in 20 the coin department. 21 Q. Who is the assistant in the coin 22 department? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Who was the assistant in the coin 25 department? 83 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. I cannot remember then. Generally 3 speaking, the electronic invoices are generated 4 like that and I should think Paul probably wrote 5 the longer description, the ones with the full 6 descriptions. 7 Q. The assistant in the coin 8 department would have been been taking dictation 9 from Paul Dawson? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. That assistant would not have added 12 any of their own information ---- 13 A. Absolutely not, no. 14 Q. Are you aware of what Spink's costs 15 and charges were in connection with in export? 16 A. No. I can only speculate. The 17 costs of the registered parcel which, with all the 18 Chinese coins, would have come to a bit. It might 19 have cost us $25 or something like that, in terms 20 of the pure postage. Then there is the time spent 21 by Paul in putting it together and describing it 22 and everything else. 23 Q. Does Spink typically charge a 24 customer for costs and charges? 25 A. We would certainly charge for 84 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 postage, yes. 3 Q. Where would you expect to see that 4 charge documented? 5 A. It would normally be included as a 6 separate item on the invoice but in this instance, 7 where Paul may or may not have expected to be paid 8 anyway because he was aware of the nature of the 9 exercise, it was not deemed appropriate because we 10 would not be charging for it. 11 Q. That is because Spink was willing 12 to donate that charge? 13 A. Correct. 14 MS. FARBER: I do not think I have 15 anything further. Peter, would you care to ---- 16 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. TOMPA 18 19 BY MR. TOMPA: 20 Q. Thank you, Molissa and thank you, 21 John, for spending your time with us today. I 22 just have a couple of questions and I have two 23 exhibits I would like you to look at. 24 First, we talked a little bit about 25 yourself and about Paul but can you tell me Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 21 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 22 (Pages 85 to 88) 85 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 something about Spink so we have some sense of 3 what Spink is? 4 A. Spink was a company set up in 1666 5 in the City of London, who gravitated to the West 6 End in the 19th century. As I say, we have been 7 dealing in coins since about 1880 and, as I say, 8 we put out the Numismatic Circular 12 times a year 9 in continuous production for 100 years until we 10 stopped retailing coins about four years ago. 11 We are the leading dealers in coins 12 in the United Kingdom and have been for a very 13 very long time. We were founder members of the 14 International Association of Professional 15 Numismatists and the British Numismatic Trade 16 Association. We are perhaps one of the most 17 famous names in numismatics in the world. 18 Q. Is it fair to say that you also 19 have some relationships with the Royal Family 20 through the warrants that are on your ---- 21 A. Yes, we have held a Royal Warrant 22 for supplying medals for the Royal Family for 23 30-40 years at least, maybe longer. 24 Q. Mr. Pett, you saw the kind of coins 25 were dealing with here today and in the invoice 86 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 and in the pictures. Is it fair to say that they 3 are not typical of the types of coins that Spink 4 usually sells? 5 A. No. Generally, this is the sort of 6 material, when it comes our way, which is in the 7 infrequently and there are people coming in here 8 with old suitcases and boxes of stuff that they 9 have found in the attic or when the grandparents 10 are deceased or parents deceased, people have been 11 bringing large numbers of coins over to this 12 country for as long as people have been travelling 13 in coin producing countries and it is only in the 14 last -- certainly since the war that there have 15 been any restrictions on any movement of such 16 objects, but generally speaking we go for higher 17 end material, which makes ---- 18 Q. Is it fair to say that this is not 19 higher end material? 20 A. No, absolutely not. This is the 21 sort of material that we normally throw into a box 22 and let school kids rummage in or hand them to 23 students to try and identify. 24 Q. Is it fair to say that -- you see 25 the pictures of the Chinese coins that were at 87 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 issue in this case. Is it fair to say that they 3 are a common coin? 4 A. As I say, it is not my specialist 5 area but I have seen what goes on around me and, 6 yes, I would say that they were typical low grade 7 Chinese material. 8 Q. You took a look at the pictures of 9 the Cypriot coins, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Is it fair to say that there is 12 nothing special about them? 13 A. Nothing special, no. Very common. 14 Q. I would like to introduce -- Mr. 15 Court reporter you should have before you an 16 appraisal. It is USA document numbers 00258 17 through -- let me see, the last page is ---- 18 THE COURT REPORTER: 280? 19 MR. TOMPA: 280, yes. Can you 20 forward to Mr. Pett and have him take a look at it 21 and then also mark it as the next exhibit? 22 THE COURT REPORTER: Exhibit 8 23 marketed and shown to the witness. 24 (Exhibit 8 was marked for identification) 25 88 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 BY MR. TOMPA: 3 Q. Mr. Pett, can you take a look at 4 page 271, which is page 5 of 14 of this? 5 A. Yes, the "Abbott's Appraisals 6 limiting conditions, assumptions and contingent 7 conditions". 8 Q. That is correct. If you could 9 direct your attention to the left paragraph and 10 review that, on that page. 11 MS. FARBER: Peter, what page did 12 you say you are on? 13 MR. TOMPA: It is Bates number 271 14 and it is page 5 of 14 of the appraisal. 15 MS. FARBER: Thank you. 16 A. Yes, I have read that. 17 18 BY MR. TOMPA: 19 Q. You have no basis to disagree with 20 what Abbott's Appraisals said in that paragraph, 21 do you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. So it is fair to say you agree with 24 what they say? 25 A. I think so. I would not be able to Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 22 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 23 (Pages 89 to 92) 89 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 comment on whether it is difficult to identify 3 forgeries in Chinese coins after they have been 4 cleaned. I would not know. 5 Q. Okay. But other than that? 6 A. No, I cannot see anything to demur 7 from there. 8 Q. Could you turn to the next page, 9 which is page 6 of 14 and read that particular 10 page. (Pause) Have you had an opportunity to 11 review the page, Mr. Pett? 12 A. No. About four lines to go. 13 (Pause) Yes. Okay, I have read that. 14 Q. Do you have any basis to disagree 15 with what was stated on that page? 16 A. Absolutely not. It seems quite 17 succinct. 18 Q. Okay. Do you agree that material 19 that we are talking about here today can be 20 characterised as bulk material? 21 A. Yes, absolutely. 22 Q. Let us go back to the invoice, 23 which I forget what number that was. 24 MS. FARBER: That is exhibit 4. 25 90 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 BY MR. TOMPA: 3 Q. Exhibit 4. It is the invoice ACCG 4 62 and 63. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Looking at this, do you have any 7 basis to disagree with the idea that what value is 8 listed as commercially reasonable? 9 A. I have no reason to doubt it if 10 they were sold one by one to individual 11 collectors. 12 Q. Typically, there is a mark up 13 between what you buy a coin for and what you sell 14 a coin for, correct? 15 A. Absolutely. 16 Q. That is the only way you can stay 17 in business, correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Is it reasonable to say, given the 20 fact that Spink is who it is and where it has the 21 expensive offices where it has, that its mark up 22 may be larger than other companies? 23 A. Yes. Generally speaking, yes. 24 Allowing for the greed of some people involved in 25 the smaller concerns, yes. 91 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. By buying the coin that you are 3 buying from Spink, people are typically willing to 4 pay maybe a little bit more? 5 MS. FARBER: Objection to form. 6 7 BY MR. TOMPA: 8 Q. Is it correct that your customers 9 are willing to pay for the Spink name? 10 MS. FARBER: Objection to form. 11 A. Shall I answer? 12 13 BY MR. TOMPA: 14 Q. Yes, you can answer. 15 A. Yes, a little bit more. People are 16 reassured, having bought something from us, that 17 (a) it is genuine and (b) that we would be 18 interested in seeing it again. 19 Q. Let us go to another document. 20 This is the Guidance to Exporters of Antiquities 21 and it is ACCG 2 to 3. 22 THE COURT REPORTER: Marked as 23 exhibit 9 and shown to the witness. 24 (Exhibit 9 was marked for identification) 25 92 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 BY MR. TOMPA: 3 Q. Mr. Pett, why don't you take a 4 moment to look at that and tell me when you are 5 finished. (Pause) 6 A. Okay, I have read that, having read 7 it before but, okay, I am up to speed. 8 Q. Mr. Pett, have you seen this 9 document before? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you tell me what it is? 12 A. It is the Guidance to Exporters of 13 Antiquities, produced by the Museums and Libraries 14 Archives. 15 Q. Can you tell me, generally, what 16 the purpose of this document is? 17 A. It is a guidance to people, such as 18 yourselves, in terms of what requires export 19 licences and what does not. 20 Q. It is fair to say that you are 21 familiar with this document as part of your 22 position at Spink? 23 A. Absolutely. 24 Q. Looking at the invoice that we 25 looked at before and pictures of the coins that we Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 23 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 24 (Pages 93 to 96) 93 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 had before, is it fair to say that you believe 3 that the coins that were sent to the Ancient Coin 4 Collectors Guild in the United States did not 5 require an export permit, as far as the British 6 Government was concerned? 7 A. Absolutely. 8 Q. Just a few other questions. There 9 was some issue about the number of coins that are 10 actually at issue here, whether or not it is 22 or 11 23. I am just telling you this as it is something 12 you may not know. Is it fair to say that as far 13 as you know no one contacted Spink either from the 14 customs service or from the customs broker about 15 any discrepancy in the number count? 16 A. No. I am certainly aware -- I am 17 not aware of anything like that, no. 18 Q. If customs has a question about a 19 shipment, you are always willing to provide any 20 information that you can, is that not correct? 21 A. Absolutely. 22 Q. You have no knowledge of anyone 23 from customs contacting you in this particular 24 case, either US customs or British customs or the 25 broker in this case? 94 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 A. No. I have nothing. 3 MR. TOMPA: I have no further 4 questions. Do you have anything else, Molissa? 5 6 RE-EXAMINATION BY MS FARBER 7 8 BY MS. FARBER: 9 Q. Just a couple more. Mr. Pett, you 10 mentioned that Spink would sometimes apply a mark 11 up to coins that they had bought before they sell 12 them. Am I remembering that correctly? 13 A. Absolutely. I would be out of a 14 job if I did not do that. 15 Q. Do you know whether Spink bought 16 the coins that it gave to the Guild? 17 MR. TOMPA: I am going to object to 18 that. I think that mischaracterises the 19 testimony. When you say "gave", I think that is 20 not exactly what the testimony is. 21 22 BY MS. FARBER: 23 Q. Okay. I will rephrase. Do you 24 know whether Spink bought the coins that it 25 shipped to the Guild that are listed on exhibit 4, 95 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 the invoice? 3 A. I have absolutely no idea if any 4 money changed hands but if, as Mr. Kokotalio says, 5 they are only worth $25 and we were doing this on 6 behalf of the Coin Collectors Guild, I would be 7 surprised if he received payment. I do not know. 8 I am not aware of any funds changing hands in this 9 respect and before I had seen a previous exhibit 10 where a check for $275 was enclosed, inviting him 11 to endorse it back through a donation, I did not 12 know that we had even received that. 13 Q. The transaction between Spink and 14 the Guild, did this strike you as the type of 15 situation where Spink would apply a mark up? 16 A. Yes. For the purposes of invoicing 17 them to the Guild, yes. 18 Q. Do you know if a mark up was 19 applied here? 20 A. I assume so. I must confess, I do 21 not have the information in of what paperwork came 22 into this country with these Chinese coins from 23 Mr. Kokotalio, so I do not know what the asking 24 price was. He mentioned they were worth only $25 25 or something, so I just do not know I am afraid. 96 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. Typically, in your experience, if 3 you received a coin or a lot of coins that had a 4 fair market value of $25, would you then list 5 those coins at more than the fair market value? 6 A. Quite possibly. 7 Q. Would you expect to get more than 8 the fair market value for coins? 9 A. Yes. You can often do that. There 10 is no such -- one man's fair market value is 11 another man's cheap. 12 Q. I want to ask you a couple of 13 clarifying questions about a document I have not 14 shown you yet. Mr. McGregor, this is the document 15 marked for identification as USA 2. It is Bates 16 stamped ACCG 18. 17 MR. TOMPA: Molissa, I am going to 18 object for the record, of going beyond the scope 19 of my follow-up, but go ahead. 20 MS. FARBER: I am sorry, Peter. I 21 just want to ask a couple questions about the 22 charges on here. 23 MR. TOMPA: Which document is this? 24 MS. FARBER: This is ACCG 18. It is 25 the waybill. I do not expect this to be Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 24 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 25 (Pages 97 to 100) 97 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 controversial. 3 MR. TOMPA: Which USA exhibit? 4 MS. FARBER: USA 2. 5 THE COURT REPORTER: Document marked 6 and handed to the witness. 7 (Exhibit 10 was marked for identification) 8 9 BY MS. FARBER: 10 Q. Mr. Pett, I want to direct your 11 attention to the numbers listed in the bottom left 12 corner of this document. What is this document? 13 A. I am trying to work it out myself. 14 I am not familiar with it. What is it? It looks 15 like our costs for shipping the coins to 16 Baltimore. 17 Q. This is called an air waybill, is 18 that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. The numbers around the bottom left 21 corner here, there is a value of 58 and then 22 listed under weight charge and then a value of 23 18.46 listed under total other charges due to 24 carrier. Do you see that? 25 A. No. Whereabouts on the ---- 98 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. On the bottom left there was a box 3 with a bunch of other little boxes in there? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. The first line in this box in the 6 bottom left says 58.00? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Then a couple of boxes down it says 9 18.46? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Right above that value, 18.46 it 12 says total other charges due carrier? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Then a couple boxes down it says 15 total prepaid 76.46? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you know what these values refer 18 to? 19 A. I have no idea. It looks to me 20 like it is -- it looks like what they are going to 21 charge us for it, I would think. 22 Q. Who is going to charge? 23 A. I have no idea. "Total prepaid", 24 it looks like -- have we paid them £76.46 to 25 freight them? That might explain why we had to 99 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 increase the invoice price. 3 Q. Who would you have paid this 4 amount? 5 A. Presumably to Kendall Freight Ltd., 6 three boxes down from the top. It looks like it. 7 "Total £58." That would explain why Paul Dawson's 8 invoice total would seem quite high in view of 9 their wholesale value. 10 Q. Looking back at the invoice, which 11 is exhibit 4, the invoice does not include a line 12 for shipping charges, is that correct? 13 A. No. I think in this instance he 14 has included in the total selling price. 15 Q. The prices that we see on the 16 invoice say "fair market value", correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Nothing on the invoice breaks down 19 shipping charges? 20 A. No, but in this instance it looks 21 like he has realised he has to cover the cost of 22 freighting them, which he probably would not have 23 known when he wrote the invoice, so he put an 24 arbitrary higher sum to cover the costs of 25 shipping them. 100 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 Q. You are saying that Mr. Dawson 3 speculated as to what the shipping charge would 4 be, not knowing it at the time of the invoice? 5 MR. TOMPA: I am going to actually 6 object because I think we are, again, calling for 7 speculation here. He never saw that shipping 8 document until today. He just may be the wrong 9 person to ask about that, but that is my 10 objection. 11 A. I go along with Peter. I cannot 12 really add to that. He was making sure that he 13 covered his expenses. 14 15 BY MS. FARBER: 16 Q. Right. 17 A. Which he would donate if push -- I 18 am only speculating here. 19 Q. Right. You mentioned earlier that 20 the expense of the coins was something that Spink 21 had anticipated donating to the Guild. Is that an 22 accurate ---- 23 A. It would have been the way I would 24 have approached it, but I do not know what Paul 25 did with that check; whether he, as I say, applied Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 25 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 26 (Pages 101 to 104) 101 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 it to the invoice or whether he endorsed it on the 3 back and sent it back. I do not know. 4 Q. In the invoices that you have 5 written, do you break out the shipping costs 6 separately? 7 A. Generally speaking we do, but in 8 this instance it has not been done. 9 Q. You mentioned writing something 10 like three invoices a day for the entirety of your 11 tenure at Spink? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is that correct? 14 A. Yes. Generally speaking, although 15 nowadays -- I must confess, for the last few years 16 it is all done electronically now, so I handed 17 over to an assistant to generate those but I used 18 to handwrite my own for at least 30 years. 19 Q. Thinking about all of those 20 invoices that you have written, on what percentage 21 of them would you say you did not break out the 22 shipping charges separately? 23 A. Generally speaking, if it came to a 24 retail customer we would detail it separately. If 25 it was an interdealer deal with many coins, we 102 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 would probably just swallow the cost of postage 3 ourselves. 4 Q. Thinking of all of the invoices you 5 have written, in what percentage of the invoices 6 you have written would you say you added the 7 shipping costs to the fair market value of the 8 items instead of listing it separately as a 9 separate line item? 10 A. I would have thought probably about 11 20-25%, bearing in mind that most of the business 12 that we have done is done face-to-face with people 13 over the counter or at coin shows and things like 14 that, where postage obviously is not applicable. 15 Q. You would say that in 20-25% of the 16 invoices you have written, where postage is 17 applicable, you do not list the postage amount and 18 instead increase the market value? 19 A. Yes, it is all part of the deal. 20 If you are dealing with a dealer and he has bought 21 20 coins off you, you come up with a mutually 22 agreed selling price and he writes you a check and 23 the deal is done and then you maybe post him the 24 coins thereafter once the check is clear. The 25 cost of the postage was included in the deal that 103 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 you struck there and then. 3 MS. FARBER: Okay. I think that 4 clarifies it for me. I do not think I have 5 anything further. 6 MR. TOMPA: Neither do I. Thank you 7 very much, John, for taking your time today. It 8 is an experience you can add to your many 9 experiences! 10 THE WITNESS: Indeed. Nice to hear 11 you, Peter. 12 MS. FARBER: Thanks very much, Mr. 13 Pett. We appreciate your time. Thank you, Mr. 14 McGregor. 15 (Deposition concluded at 4.43pm) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 104 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 3 4 I, Shola McGregor, Court 5 Reporter, do hereby certify that I took the 6 stenotype notes of the foregoing examination and 7 that the transcript thereof is a true and accurate 8 record transcribed to the best of my skill and 9 ability. I further certify that I am neither 10 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of 11 the parties to the action in which this 12 examination was taken, and that I am not a 13 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel 14 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 15 otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Shola McGregor 23 24 25 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 26 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 27 (Page 105) 105 1 National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 2 ERRATA 3 4 (Please make any amendments or corrections on the 5 errata sheet and not on the original deposition) 6 CORRECTION PAGE 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ____________________ ______________ 24 25 Signature Date Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 27 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 106 A abbotts 88:5,20 ability 10:12 104:9 able 5:22 7:6 8:23 9:13 10:7 31:16 46:4 59:4 75:17 76:16 88:25 absolutely 6:17,20 10:14 12:8 36:2 43:8 60:21 74:17 83:13 86:20 89:16,21 90:15 92:23 93:7,21 94:13 95:3 accg 32:9,24 38:22 41:10 43:19 54:16 55:8 63:10 67:22 68:24 69:24 70:18 73:3,3 82:17 90:3 91:21 96:16,24 accident 6:10 31:11,13 accompany 55:18 accounts 55:16 accuracy 66:24 accurate 9:4,11,19 17:23 19:11 21:17 22:5,9,13,15,17 22:18,20,22 47:19 62:15 100:22 104:7 accurately 17:16,20 48:5 achievement 11:4 act 35:23 action 104:11,15 actual 48:16 51:17,25 56:9 76:18 add 8:18,22 62:12 100:12 103:8 added 59:23 60:13 83:11 102:6 adding 56:20 additional 8:17 address 63:25 addressed 39:17 adds 66:5 advertise 44:15 advertised 22:23 advice 24:5 ae 42:2,6,9 aes 42:6,10 affect 8:4 10:12 afraid 24:10 27:7 44:10 95:25 afternoon 4:13,14 ago 25:24 27:9 35:12 70:7 85:10 agree 54:11 66:19 88:23 89:18 agreed 32:5 34:21 102:22 ahead 53:25 96:19 air 31:14 97:17 alcohol 9:21 alevels 10:22 allowing 90:24 altogether 62:12 amendments 105:4 america 1:5 24:11 34:19 36:13 72:11 american 20:16 amount 70:18 99:4 102:17 ana 25:6 ancient 11:8,20 12:14,16,19,25 13:6 14:14,16 17:2 19:9,10,20,23 20:2,8 20:21 21:4 22:11 23:6,18 24:8,15 25:10 25:14,19 28:9 29:21 30:14,25 31:23 37:11 37:19 38:25 39:3,14 39:18 46:9,16 47:25 50:3,3 55:15 73:19 79:2,8,13,19 93:3 annual 33:24 answer 5:14 6:10 7:4 8:7,13,14 9:3,4,11,22 18:13 23:25 39:13 45:10 52:11,24 53:25 71:7 75:10,17,21 78:21 91:11,14 answered 53:22 62:20 answering 9:10 answers 5:13,24 9:19 anticipated 100:21 antiforgery 28:18 antiques 13:4 antiquities 91:20 92:13 anybody 24:13 46:20 anyway 13:24 40:24 84:8 apologise 12:6 apparently 12:11 appear 69:10 appears 33:14 45:2 49:25 69:11 applicable 60:3 102:14,17 applied 13:4 60:6 95:19 100:25 apply 21:11 67:6 94:10 95:15 applying 56:23 68:4 appointed 29:4 apportion 52:6 appraisal 72:17 76:5,17 87:16 88:14 appraisals 17:9 75:25 88:5,20 appreciate 52:8 103:13 approached 100:24 appropriate 16:23 84:9 approximately 13:20 arbitrary 99:24 archives 92:14 area 11:7 13:3 63:5 79:6,12 87:5 areas 18:9 arithmetic 66:7 arrive 17:23 47:13 art 13:9 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 28 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 107 articles 20:15,17,21 asked 26:10 34:9,11,12,13,15 35:6,24 37:18 38:15 38:18 43:4 49:24 53:21 56:10 57:14 62:20 asking 5:11 7:3 17:18 39:6 48:22 52:10 70:24 71:4 75:3 76:13 95:23 asks 5:14 aspect 51:25 assemble 38:23 assembling 76:17 assessing 73:23 assessment 50:12 assigned 53:17 assistance 38:15,16 73:23 assistant 12:14 13:17 82:19,21 82:24 83:7,11 101:17 associate 11:19 14:7,12 16:15 association 25:22 28:17 35:23 85:14,16 associations 28:15,22 assortment 37:10 38:20 assume 7:5 44:18 52:25 56:19 58:6 81:20 95:20 assumption 58:9 assumptions 88:6 attached 48:16 51:17 64:17 73:24 74:4 attend 20:9 attending 15:3 attends 25:4 attention 33:12 38:22 41:7,18 44:3,25 65:25 72:24 88:9 97:11 attic 86:9 attorney 4:24 26:7,8,15 104:13 attorneys 2:6 4:22 7:22 attract 59:13,23 60:10 attractive 50:17 au 80:4 auction 16:25 77:8 auctions 14:25 15:3,4 16:20 authentic 55:22 authenticity 47:22 available 13:7 avoid 81:20 aware 23:21 24:7,17 27:21 35:9 38:2 42:25 46:3 64:14 72:16 83:14 84:8 93:16,17 95:8 awfully 31:16 B b 91:17 back 8:22 21:24 31:18 45:2 55:4 65:13 70:16 71:11,11,17,21 80:16 89:22 95:11 99:10 101:3,3 background 10:21 12:19 33:8 bad 6:25 badly 7:3 bailey 2:15 baltimore 2:10 97:16 band 36:24 base 12:9 58:8 based 52:18 77:6 basis 7:25 8:6 14:25 19:19 88:19 89:14 90:7 bates 43:19 63:10 88:13 96:15 bc 65:6,9 bearing 16:25 102:11 behalf 2:5,14 95:6 believe 27:4 32:3 64:23 70:13 76:4 78:2 93:2 best 7:7 17:22 24:6 75:21 75:22 104:8 beyond 72:20 96:18 bill 41:22 44:9 bit 5:3,4,5 10:20 20:7 28:24,25 40:14 83:18 84:24 91:4,15 bloomsbury 1:20 board 29:11,19 bodies 28:20 38:11 body 23:15 book 20:11 books 61:11 boss 13:22 15:15 bothered 24:18 bottom 32:24 38:22 70:2 73:10 73:25 97:11,20 98:2,6 bought 91:16 94:11,15,24 102:20 box 86:21 98:2,5 boxes 37:25 42:21 86:8 98:3 98:8,14 99:6 brain 12:7 break 7:8,11 10:8 54:18,19 54:20,24 80:7 101:5 101:21 breakdown 55:18 breaks 99:18 bridge 8:9 brief 80:7 briefly 21:3 bringing 86:11 british 21:10 28:17 35:22 85:15 93:5,24 broken 51:9 broker 93:14,25 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 29 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 108 bronze 42:7,9,10,12 57:25 59:2 60:18 61:2,16 65:15 bulk 67:10 89:20 bunch 98:3 business 29:3,24 30:8,12 36:18 59:8 64:8 68:21 90:17 102:11 buy 14:24 90:13 buyer 39:2,3,15,19 40:2,5,6 40:11,13 76:8,18,20 buying 14:14,20 15:3 16:2 91:2,3 C c 2:3,18 calgary 64:4,10 calgarycoins 64:2 called 23:6 97:17 calling 23:20 52:21 100:6 calls 53:22 75:6 canada 45:15,16,25 48:5 51:2 52:7 64:11 cancer 10:3,11 11:22,24 12:5 12:9 capacity 26:15 cards 27:10 care 37:24 84:15 career 19:24 carrier 97:24 98:12 carry 66:12 case 18:9 19:7 20:2 21:10 26:13,21 27:14 34:18 50:20 51:23 57:16,18 60:3 79:25 87:2 93:24,25 catalogue 14:19,23 catalogues 16:3,6 catch 35:19 categories 27:3 ccb131183 1:7 ccd 44:8 77:9,14 ccing 41:22 45:3 century 85:6 certain 12:3 26:3 27:3 59:23 60:18 61:16 certainly 21:15 58:19,21 60:10 81:4,7,13,15 82:14 83:25 86:14 93:16 certificate 104:2 certify 104:5,9 chairman 28:16 challenge 35:3,10 68:13 challenges 35:5 challenging 68:16 changed 68:11 95:4 changing 95:8 characterised 89:20 charge 11:20 13:18,25 15:22 15:24 22:16 60:2,15 73:15 79:12 80:4 83:23,25 84:4,12 97:22 98:21,22 100:3 charges 52:5 53:19 83:15,24 96:22 97:23 98:12 99:12,19 101:22 charging 84:10 charles 2:8 chat 25:7 30:20 32:4 cheap 96:11 check 69:11 71:10,14 95:10 100:25 102:22,24 checked 81:18 chicago 25:6 china 37:12 57:25 chinese 1:8 33:17 45:20,24 46:4,8,13,19 47:20,24 48:11 49:15 51:2,7 56:20 57:14 60:22 61:7,9,13,14,20,24 62:12,18,25 64:21,22 65:14 83:18 86:25 87:7 89:3 95:22 choose 32:16 christmas 33:25 chronicle 20:19 circa 65:6,9 circular 16:12 85:8 city 85:5 civil 1:6 claim 81:16 clarification 8:18 46:14 clarifies 103:4 clarify 5:15 8:22 35:2 clarifying 72:10 96:13 classics 10:23 clause 35:15 cleaned 89:4 clear 11:24 51:20 52:14 102:24 client 22:7 26:8 27:13 30:2 clientele 16:4 clients 15:4 close 31:13 cognisant 16:19 coin 12:14,16 13:7 15:2,6 15:11,18 16:17,23 17:2,23 18:4,15,18,20 18:25 19:9 22:22 23:2,3,6,18 24:16 25:4,5,8,14 28:9 29:4 29:14,23 30:6,14,25 31:24 32:4 39:2,3,14 39:18 46:9,16 50:3,3 50:24 53:6,13,13,17 53:20 54:3,9,12 55:15 61:24 64:11 65:9 75:3 77:11,23 78:3,8 78:16,21 79:15,19 81:6,11,16,23 82:9,20 82:21,24 83:7 86:13 87:3 90:13,14 91:2 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 30 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 109 93:3 95:6 96:3 102:13 coinage 27:3 coins 1:7,8,8 11:20 12:20,25 13:6,10 14:14,16,19 14:20 15:2,3 16:11,16 16:20 17:15,19,22 18:2,24 19:11,13,20 19:23 20:2,5,8,16,21 21:5 22:11 24:9 25:10,19 29:21 30:2 31:22,24 33:18 34:10 34:12,24 37:5,10,11 37:19,25 38:20 39:4 39:21,24,24 40:5,17 42:3,12,12,13,15,22 42:23 43:2,10,15 44:15 45:15,16,19,21 45:24 46:4,8,19,23,25 47:5,11,15,20,24,25 48:5,12,14 49:7,10,15 49:17,21 50:2,25 51:3 51:8,10 52:5,7,18 53:2,10,16 55:25 56:11,12,15,20,21,23 57:15,25 58:7 59:3,7 59:23,24 60:3,5,11,18 60:18,22,25 61:2,7,9 61:14,16,21 62:12,18 62:25 64:5,10,17,21 64:22 65:5,6,10,10,14 65:15,19,22 66:2,4,15 67:8 68:2 69:12 71:17 72:14,17 73:16 73:19 74:5,7,11,16 76:9,19,21,24 77:13 79:2,7,8,13,13,19 81:3 83:18 85:7,10,11 85:24 86:3,11,25 87:9 89:3 92:25 93:3,9 94:11,16,24 95:22 96:3,5,8 97:15 100:20 101:25 102:21,24 colleagues 72:10 collect 67:12 collectible 50:18 60:16 collection 37:7 collector 36:25 collectors 20:5 23:6,18 24:16 25:14 28:9 30:14,25 31:24 39:2,3,14,18 46:9,16 55:15 90:11 93:4 95:6 column 59:18 com 44:13 64:2 come 8:9 14:24 16:22 21:9 24:11 29:16 31:17 50:14,19 75:15 76:22 77:3 80:24 83:18 102:21 comes 20:20 86:6 coming 12:20 30:5 86:7 commencing 1:17 comment 89:2 commercially 90:8 committee 28:18 common 35:4 87:3,13 communicate 36:15 communicating 45:6 companies 90:22 company 11:20 13:16 14:8 36:21 37:3 64:11 85:4 compare 16:18 complete 8:14 9:18 50:17 complied 49:25 concerned 14:17 26:11 31:8 93:6 concerns 90:25 concluded 103:15 conditions 88:6,7 confess 70:6 74:9 95:20 101:15 confirm 48:4 confirmed 47:22 connected 53:18 connection 6:22,25 83:15 considering 26:2 consult 76:25 consulted 76:5 contacted 81:10 93:13 contacting 93:23 contents 56:14 context 12:7 76:18 contingent 88:6 continue 54:18 continuous 85:9 contribute 72:12 controversial 97:2 convention 33:22 conversation 5:6 34:7 36:5 38:8 43:6 46:11 72:21 79:23 conversations 30:23 34:5 57:17 copies 51:6 copy 55:14 copying 56:19 corner 97:12,21 correct 39:22 61:25 62:13 65:16 66:21 67:18,23 75:24 81:23 84:13 87:9 88:8 90:14,17,18 91:8 93:20 99:12,16 101:13 correction 105:6 corrections 105:4 correctly 94:12 cost 52:5 54:3 68:6 83:19 99:21 102:2,25 costs 52:19 53:3,6,18 54:8 54:11 69:17 70:9,11 70:11 83:14,17,24 97:15 99:24 101:5 102:7 cough 9:20 counsel 104:10,13 count 46:23 47:5,10,16 93:15 counted 46:20 47:12 counter 102:13 countries 60:15 86:13 country 21:8 23:13 29:3 36:2 69:15 86:12 95:22 couple 5:8 9:16 80:19 84:22 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 31 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 110 94:9 96:12,21 98:8,14 course 17:6 19:23 coursework 20:7 court 1:1,2 2:1,22 3:1 4:1,11 5:1,20 6:1,5 7:1 8:1 9:1 10:1 11:1 12:1 13:1 14:1 15:1 16:1 17:1 18:1 19:1 20:1 21:1 22:1 23:1 24:1 25:1 26:1 27:1 28:1 29:1 30:1 31:1 32:1 32:10,15 33:1 34:1 35:1 36:1 37:1 38:1 39:1 40:1 41:1,12 42:1 43:1,21 44:1 45:1 46:1 47:1 48:1 49:1 50:1 51:1 52:1 53:1 54:1 55:1 56:1 57:1 58:1 59:1 60:1 61:1 62:1 63:1,12 64:1 65:1 66:1 67:1 68:1,25 69:1 70:1 71:1 72:1 73:1,4 74:1 75:1 76:1 77:1 78:1 79:1 80:1 81:1 82:1 83:1 84:1 85:1 86:1 87:1,15,18,22 88:1 89:1 90:1 91:1,22 92:1 93:1 94:1 95:1 96:1 97:1,5 98:1 99:1 100:1 101:1 102:1 103:1 104:1,2,4 105:1 cover 70:11 99:21,24 covered 100:13 cross 8:8 current 28:21 31:3 73:23 currently 59:24 customer 81:23 82:6,8 83:24 101:24 customers 14:24 67:4,8 91:8 customs 22:2 23:16,19 24:8 25:10 48:16 56:12 58:23 76:12 93:14,14 93:18,23,24,24 cv 13:5 cypriot 1:8 33:18 37:19 42:3 56:21 57:15 63:4 87:9 cyprus 37:11 D d 2:18 3:2 daily 14:24 date 105:25 dated 63:23 david 77:9,18 78:7,15 79:5 79:18,22 dawson 15:23 28:25 29:6,16 30:18 33:15 34:4 36:4 37:14 38:5 39:8 41:21 42:2,14,25 43:9 45:3 46:7 49:9,12 51:24 57:7,18 58:18 67:25 74:19 75:3 77:10,17 78:4,24 79:10 82:19 83:9 100:2 dawsons 29:12,20 30:13 31:3 99:7 day 15:21 30:19 67:13 80:23 101:10 days 11:4,23 16:5 29:17,18 43:12 78:4 daytoday 14:15 15:22 16:8 deal 8:3 101:25 102:19,23 102:25 dealer 29:2,23 36:25 67:2 75:14 102:20 dealers 67:11 85:11 dealing 18:2 85:7,25 102:20 deals 16:3 73:16 decades 30:11 deceased 86:10,10 december 1:15 decide 50:13 82:10 deemed 84:9 deeply 35:21 defendants 1:9 2:14 degree 11:3 demur 89:6 denomination 50:23 department 12:15,17,25 13:7,18 14:2,4,5,6 15:7,12,18 15:22 20:11 22:17 29:5,15 55:16 77:12 77:23 78:3,8,16,22 79:12 82:20,22,25 83:8 departments 14:10 deposed 4:18 deposition 4:12,16,22 5:4,8,11 6:15,19 8:13 33:9 39:10 48:25 51:23 71:2 103:15 105:5 derived 40:19 described 17:12,22 48:6 66:3 describes 65:14,21 describing 83:21 description 16:21 56:18 83:5 descriptions 16:11 38:24 56:21,23 83:6 detail 50:20 101:24 detailed 55:17 details 19:15 26:11 76:16 determine 52:5 determining 18:21 dialing 29:17 dictated 16:19 dictation 82:19 83:8 died 31:12 difference 18:3,15,20 69:20 different 5:5 39:25 41:7 54:4,9 54:12 76:22 79:19 difficult 9:22 30:7 89:2 difficulty 46:12 direct 33:11 38:21 41:7,17 44:3 72:23 88:9 97:10 directing 44:25 65:25 director 11:19 14:4,8,12 16:15 disagree Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 32 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 111 88:19 89:14 90:7 disagrees 7:22 discovery 1:11 discrepancy 93:15 discuss 25:9 discussed 32:5 discussing 82:16 discussions 60:24 distinguish 42:11 district 1:2,2 2:7 division 73:19 79:9,19 divisions 79:16 doctors 31:7 document 32:9,24 39:7 40:15 41:8,9 43:18 44:4,7 45:9 54:14 55:8,11,19 63:9 68:23 69:8 71:3 72:24,24 75:6 87:16 91:19 92:9,16,21 96:13,14,23 97:5,12 97:12 100:8 documentation 40:7 documented 84:4 documents 9:10,13 doing 15:25 33:8 38:10 66:7 70:19 95:5 dole 11:4 dollar 69:16 dollars 66:5 domain 44:12 64:2 donate 70:18 71:12 84:12 100:17 donated 48:14 72:14 donating 100:21 donation 69:14 95:11 dont 26:17 39:10 54:25 92:3 doubt 66:23 67:20 76:15 90:9 drafting 52:3 drugs 9:20 due 97:23 98:12 duly 4:3 dynasty 62:4,6,9 64:25 65:5,5,8 65:9,10 E e 2:3,3 3:2 earlier 8:19 43:7 62:24 77:22 78:20 100:19 early 34:2 easier 32:13 educational 10:21 effect 36:2 effort 31:24 40:17 42:15 efforts 43:10 69:13 ehrenberg 2:15 eight 13:19 either 7:24 9:13 22:22 49:15 93:13,24 electronic 55:16 83:3 electronically 101:16 elevation 14:8 email 32:2,8 33:7,14 37:8 38:25 40:19,21 41:18 41:21,25 44:13 45:3,7 46:6 47:3 48:13 51:6 53:10 63:18,25 64:16 73:10 74:19,22 77:10 77:15 emails 41:6 44:20 employed 104:10,14 employee 77:11,22 104:13 employees 15:12,18 77:19 en 82:13 enclosed 69:12 71:10 95:10 encrustations 48:2 endorse 71:11 95:11 endorsed 71:13 101:2 ends 32:25 english 52:14 77:12 79:13 ensure 22:14 entail 16:16 enterprise 57:10,12 entire 12:17 51:22 63:4 65:22 66:16,20 67:15 entirely 24:2 36:7 54:4 entirety 101:10 entitled 22:2 envelopes 19:16 74:12 equates 68:6 equivalent 23:12 errata 105:2,5 erstwhile 13:22 especially 29:25 essentially 8:3 18:22,23 estimate 80:20 81:2 etcetera 38:20 event 33:24 35:8 everybodys 36:3 exact 60:8 exactly 71:9 94:20 examination 1:11,11 3:5,6,7 4:6 84:17 104:6,12 examined 4:4 exclude 66:11 excluding 66:3 exercise 84:9 exhibit 3:10 32:11,13,14,19,20 41:11,14 43:20,23 44:8 45:2 55:7,9 63:11,14 68:24 69:3 69:24 70:16 73:2,4,6 82:16 87:21,22,24 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 33 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 112 89:24 90:3 91:23,24 94:25 95:9 97:3,7 99:11 exhibits 84:23 existed 12:23 expect 30:8 58:22 69:13 70:13 75:14 84:3 96:7,25 expectation 37:21 expected 68:19 84:7 expecting 13:8 expense 68:21 100:20 expenses 100:13 expensive 90:21 experience 4:21 77:5,6 96:2 103:8 experiences 103:9 expert 19:9 23:22 47:24 48:11 expertise 19:19,20 63:5 79:13 explain 98:25 99:7 export 19:10,15 21:4,11,13 31:24 40:17 83:15 92:18 93:5 exported 60:4 exporters 91:20 92:12 expression 70:7 extent 31:5 extremely 13:15 31:10,12 eye 16:5 F facetoface 102:12 fact 59:6 90:20 factotum 15:10 facts 12:3 faculties 10:5 fair 17:18 18:4,16,21 53:8 53:19 61:17,21,25 62:6,9,13,16 67:5,22 69:21 70:7,8,12 72:2 72:13 85:18 86:2,18 86:24 87:2,11 88:23 92:20 93:2,12 96:4,5 96:8,10 99:16 102:7 fairly 17:7 51:5 fait 80:4 fake 17:3 fallen 11:21 familiar 19:12,17 23:5,9 24:23 25:2 29:20,25 30:13 34:24 44:23 64:4,6,12 92:21 97:14 family 29:24 85:19,22 famous 85:17 far 14:16 31:7 37:23 67:7 93:5,12 farber 2:11 3:6,8 4:9,15 7:18 18:12 23:24 26:9,12 26:20 27:17,25 32:12 32:18,22 39:12 41:16 43:25 45:13 49:3 52:16,23 53:24 54:25 55:6 57:23 62:23 63:16 69:5 71:6,24 73:8 75:9 78:11,14 80:6,13,18 84:14 88:11,15 89:24 91:5 91:10 94:6,8,22 96:20 96:24 97:4,9 100:15 103:3,12 fast 53:15 father 29:23 30:8 february 15:18 felt 35:2 figure 51:21 53:2 60:8 75:16 fill 27:9 76:16 filtered 24:5 financially 104:14 find 9:14 41:4 42:15 43:5 43:10,15 46:4 67:4 78:18 finding 46:12 fine 26:10 finish 6:7,11 finished 6:10 92:5 first 12:13 13:14 15:13 40:6 40:14 47:13 55:17 57:24 58:20 61:17 65:15 66:3,11 84:24 98:5 five 8:15 80:7,10 fixed 14:19 floor 2:9 fluke 13:2 fmc 70:3 fmv 70:5 follows 4:4 followup 80:11 96:19 foot 65:8 foregoing 104:6 foreign 14:25 15:2 forgeries 89:3 forget 89:23 forgotten 35:14 form 91:5,10 formal 40:15 formality 48:18 format 58:18 forms 48:16 forth 15:5 forward 33:9 87:20 forwarded 32:3 33:7 found 33:8 40:24 42:19 45:22 67:12 86:9 founder 85:13 four 15:8,12,14 80:23 85:10 89:12 frankly 19:21 31:11 42:18 freight 98:25 99:5 freighting 99:22 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 34 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 113 frequently 25:7 front 63:7 full 9:18 37:21 43:12 83:5 fuller 73:12,22 fulltime 77:19 fun 4:20 fund 70:18 71:12,22 funds 95:8 further 26:5,13 84:15 94:3 103:5 104:9 G general 14:19 15:10 60:22 79:11 generalised 61:10 generalist 79:14 generally 14:13 15:9 16:4,10,17 17:4 21:2,14 22:10 23:4 35:25 47:8,9 49:22 50:11 51:14 81:19 82:2,4,11 83:2 86:5,16 90:23 92:15 101:7,14,23 generate 101:17 generated 82:18 83:3 gentleman 19:16 44:11,24 51:15 genuine 48:3 91:17 getting 9:18 14:22 18:8 26:8 26:11,11,14 53:3 gifted 39:25 40:5 give 8:13,15 9:3,11 14:9 35:2 50:4 53:15 54:20 71:17 given 90:19 giving 14:20 71:21 glad 12:12 glass 10:3 54:21 go 5:7 8:22 12:24 21:25 41:6 44:16 53:25 54:16,20,25 74:3 75:24 76:25 78:18 80:13 86:16 89:12,22 91:19 96:19 100:11 goes 22:24 48:17 51:16 73:2 87:5 going 5:3,12 7:4 8:4 18:6,7 26:4 39:6,9 45:8 48:21 52:9,20 54:17 63:8 70:22,23 71:19 71:22 73:11 75:5,15 78:9 94:17 96:17,18 98:20,22 100:5 gold 42:12 good 4:13,14,17 7:8 9:8,15 15:20 44:5 65:2,3 69:15 75:23 80:12,23 goods 22:2 40:9 goodwill 82:11 government 25:25 35:11 72:18 93:6 grade 20:5 37:25 42:20 46:12 50:11,14 51:8 87:6 grading 14:21 16:11,17 graduate 13:9 graduated 10:24 11:11,12 grandparents 86:9 gravitated 85:5 great 6:2 7:13 10:15,19 greed 90:24 greek 11:8 51:13 grew 29:24 30:8 grief 80:23 ground 5:8 50:19 group 38:24 60:25 guarantee 22:12 guess 44:22 65:2 75:11,12 guest 77:9,18 78:7,15 79:5 79:18 guests 79:23 guidance 91:20 92:12,17 guild 23:7,18 24:13,16 25:14 25:17 28:9 30:15,25 38:16 39:2,3,15,18 43:10,15 44:22 46:9 46:15,16 55:16 72:14 93:4 94:16,25 95:6,14 95:17 100:21 guilds 24:7 31:24 H h 2:11 hammered 77:13 79:6 han 62:6,8 65:9,10 hand 53:12 86:22 handed 41:13 43:22 63:13 69:2 73:5 97:6 101:16 handle 24:6 handled 18:24 19:22 hands 38:3 68:11 95:4,8 handwrite 101:18 happen 8:12 9:2 22:4 81:5 happened 31:9 81:12 82:14 happening 82:3 happens 7:15 8:19 happy 72:12 hard 6:23 19:25 53:15 head 5:21,22 10:2 14:5,6 29:14 30:2 health 31:3 hear 8:5 12:12 103:10 heard 7:5 70:6 81:9 held 11:17 13:13 85:21 help 9:11 13:5 72:9 helped 82:13 helping 43:14 hereto 104:14 herring 79:24 hierarchy 17:4 high Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 35 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 114 36:23 53:12 63:2 99:8 higher 67:22 68:2 86:16,19 99:24 history 11:8 hold 53:3 honest 24:2 26:23 28:4 29:22 37:5 44:21 honestly 27:11 honorary 24:18 hope 67:11 hopefully 4:21 hospital 31:13 hour 8:16 54:17 human 78:18 hundreds 19:2 hunted 30:3 I iapn 25:21 26:6 27:3 28:12 28:18 34:25 idea 61:12 65:20 90:7 95:3 98:19,23 identical 17:3 identification 32:20 41:9,14 43:18,23 54:15 55:9 63:14 69:3 72:25 73:6 87:24 91:24 96:15 97:7 identified 19:8 identify 86:23 89:2 image 64:17 images 73:25 74:4,10 imagine 19:25 69:18 82:18 immediately 47:16 impair 10:5 import 27:2 37:10 59:13,14,16 59:19 important 5:13 6:2 17:15,17,19 21:16,19,25 59:9 82:8 importation 26:3 34:19 impose 34:24 imposed 37:11 include 52:7 58:17,19 70:9,10 99:11 included 44:19 53:10 56:16 60:20,23 67:25 69:17 77:20 84:5 99:14 102:25 including 63:4 increase 68:6 99:2 102:18 index 3:10 indicate 39:20 58:4 64:20 75:2 individual 67:4,8 90:10 individually 42:24 75:15 individuals 44:14 industry 17:13 30:5,6,6 information 8:17 83:12 93:20 95:21 informed 38:13 infrequently 86:7 initially 19:6 input 35:24 insensitive 12:6 instance 39:17 49:24 72:11 76:10 81:8,9,17 84:6 99:13,20 101:8 instances 81:16,22 instructions 70:19 instructs 8:8 intend 6:18 interact 30:17 interacted 25:13 interactions 25:18 26:6 28:8 interdealer 67:2 101:25 interested 91:18 104:15 interests 23:15,19 25:25 international 25:22 33:21 85:14 interpose 26:5 interrupt 6:9 intrigued 10:17 introduce 87:14 introducing 26:2 introductory 9:17 invited 71:11 inviting 95:10 invoice 22:4,15,23 38:25 39:15 39:16,20,25 40:4,7 46:25 48:9 49:20 52:3 53:5,11,18 55:14 55:17 56:2,4 57:2,4,8 57:9 58:21,23 61:15 63:7 65:13 66:2,4,20 67:21 69:22,23 76:25 82:15,17 84:6 85:25 89:22 90:3 92:24 95:2 99:2,8,10,11,16 99:18,23 100:4 101:2 invoices 21:13,17 22:9,11 58:12 80:21 83:3 101:4,10 101:20 102:4,5,16 invoicing 31:21 95:16 involved 16:15 27:14 31:6,10,21 31:23 35:9,21 38:11 44:17 52:2 77:18 79:5 90:24 involvement 72:17 79:23 involves 22:25 issue 7:23 67:16 87:2 93:9 93:10 issued 59:6 issues 60:10 item 17:2 19:2 50:17,18 57:24 58:20 70:12 84:6 102:9 items 42:20 48:3 56:18 58:24 60:16 70:3 73:24 76:14 77:6,7,8 102:8 J job Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 36 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 115 john 1:13 3:4 4:2 70:23 73:12,14 77:10,16,20 80:3,10 84:21 103:7 joined 13:17 15:13 30:10 journal 20:16 journals 20:11,13,23 K k 2:19 keen 13:15 keep 16:5 63:7 keeping 38:12 kendall 99:5 kids 86:22 kind 7:22 9:20 37:9 38:19 75:20 76:20 85:24 kingdom 1:21 85:12 knew 29:23 38:11 42:16 72:21 knifeshaped 1:7 65:5 know 6:11,24 7:3,9 10:8,9 12:22 19:3 22:2,6 23:10 24:19 26:24 27:18,20,20 28:2,7 29:12,22 30:22 31:20 31:23 37:4,7 41:5 42:17,18,19 44:10,12 44:19,23 46:20 47:21 49:15 51:7 52:12,25 56:17 60:17,19,21 61:3,6,9 62:18 65:18 67:7,25 68:11 71:15 72:20 75:11,12,13,17 75:19 77:14,17,20 78:17,19 79:4 80:9 89:4 93:12,13 94:15 94:24 95:7,12,18,23 95:25 98:17 100:24 101:3 knowing 68:10,19 71:13 100:4 knowledge 19:9 24:5 25:20 40:18 46:21 68:8 75:22 93:22 known 23:11 99:23 knows 49:14 kokotalio 63:19 64:13,21 66:3,15 95:4,23 kokotalios 63:25 64:16 66:24 67:14 L labelled 74:12 languages 20:24 large 36:21 86:11 larger 75:16 90:22 latin 11:8 42:10 lawyers 8:3 lay 38:2 lead 21:20 leading 85:11 lectures 20:9 left 10:22 14:2 15:15 88:9 97:11,20 98:2,6 legal 72:10 legislation 27:2 28:5 35:25 letter 71:20 liaise 24:4 libraries 92:13 licence 21:11 licences 92:19 life 30:9 lifted 31:14 limit 34:23 limited 42:20 limiting 27:2 88:6 line 33:17 40:7,14 59:15,17 61:17,20 98:5 99:11 102:9 lines 89:12 list 63:5 96:4 102:17 listed 39:15,19 55:24 61:15 62:25 66:4,20 67:21 90:8 94:25 97:11,22 97:23 listing 23:2 49:19 60:11 102:8 lists 65:4 literally 19:22 42:23 litigating 19:7 litigation 26:16 27:18,21,23 little 5:3,4 10:20 12:2 20:7 21:7 37:19 50:20 84:24 91:4,15 98:3 llp 2:15 locate 40:17 42:2,18 london 1:20 85:5 londonbased 4:11 long 31:16 35:12 48:2 59:8 85:13 86:12 longer 83:5 85:23 look 7:9 13:5 17:5 20:24,25 29:8 32:7 41:2 54:14 55:22 61:11,14 63:6,8 66:2 68:22 69:23 73:10 74:18 84:23 87:8,20 88:3 92:4 looked 51:5,8 92:25 looking 32:23 42:17 43:2 44:8 53:9 57:24 65:13 90:6 92:24 99:10 looks 52:17 61:15 65:17 71:9 97:14 98:19,20,24 99:6,20 lord 15:20 lost 12:4 22:21 35:15 lot 41:6 65:22 66:16,20 67:3,15 96:3 lovely 69:7 low 37:25 42:20,22 46:12 49:7,20 50:9,11,13,21 51:8,18 87:6 lowest 50:23,24 51:3 lubricate 10:4 lucky 31:12 lump Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 37 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 116 50:18 lying 37:19 81:19 M mail 73:20,21 mailed 57:5 mailings 24:21 main 21:2 77:19 major 31:13 making 22:9 68:8 100:12 managed 12:10 42:2,18 mans 96:10,11 mantra 60:14 march 11:13 63:23 mark 32:11,12,13,18 41:11 43:20 55:7 63:10 68:4,5,24 73:2 87:21 90:12,21 94:10 95:15 95:18 marked 32:9,20 41:9,12,14 43:18,21,23 54:15 55:9 63:12,14 68:25 69:3 72:25 73:4,6 82:16 87:24 91:22,24 96:15 97:5,7 market 16:19 18:4,16,21 53:7 53:8,19 61:17,21,25 62:6,9,13,16 67:5,22 69:21 70:7,8,12 96:4 96:5,8,10 99:16 102:7 102:18 marketed 87:23 martin 73:11 maryland 1:2 2:7 match 58:24 material 26:3 45:21 46:13 50:11 50:14 67:10 86:6,17 86:19,21 87:7 89:18 89:20 math 66:9 80:25 matter 11:5 13:2 28:2 41:2 matters 73:16 max 15:25 16:3 77:23 78:4 78:23 mcgregor 2:23 5:12 32:8 41:8 43:17 69:6 96:14 103:14 104:4,22 md 2:10 mean 18:5,17 21:22 30:6 35:20 36:20 39:2,14 42:5 48:20 49:4 50:6 51:19 52:8 56:4,14 59:3 70:10,21 71:8 82:7 meaning 42:7 means 6:16 7:21 36:16 48:16 48:23 49:6 51:17 59:4 68:10,19 71:13 meant 48:24 medals 85:22 medication 9:20 member 24:15,18 25:16 44:22 members 85:13 memory 11:25 mental 10:5 66:7 mention 9:5,12 59:9 mentioned 11:10 16:14 24:23 28:11 38:10 43:3,11 46:11 62:24 76:4 77:22 78:2 94:10 95:24 100:19 101:9 mentioning 7:15 mentions 37:9 merely 38:10 57:10 76:13 message 73:10 met 25:3 64:14 metal 50:19 million 36:22 mind 7:15 16:25 32:15 54:23 102:11 mine 65:3 minimal 59:14 minor 36:19 minute 54:24 80:7 minutes 8:15 80:10 mischaracterises 78:10 94:18 mischaracterizes 71:20 misplaced 81:6 missing 81:11,24 82:10 misunderstandings 21:21 modern 60:10 modest 36:24 37:2 72:11 modestly 82:9 modify 78:20 molissa 2:11 4:15 7:14 26:4 54:23 84:20 94:4 96:17 moment 10:2 66:8 70:7 92:4 money 14:13 22:7 68:11 71:17 95:4 monthly 14:18,23 16:13 months 11:12 moons 25:24 motorway 31:11 move 13:23 moved 8:21 movement 86:15 moving 13:24 multiple 62:21 museum 70:18 71:12 museums 92:13 mutually 102:21 N n 2:3 3:2 name 4:15 44:12 64:7 91:9 named 44:9 63:18 77:23 names 15:17 85:17 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 38 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 117 national 1:1 2:1 3:1 4:1 5:1 6:1 7:1 8:1 9:1 10:1 11:1 12:1 13:1 14:1 15:1 16:1 17:1 18:1 19:1 20:1 21:1 22:1 23:1 24:1 25:1 26:1 27:1 28:1 29:1 30:1 31:1 32:1 33:1 34:1 35:1 36:1 37:1 38:1 39:1 40:1 41:1 42:1 43:1 44:1 45:1 46:1 47:1 48:1 49:1 50:1 51:1 52:1 53:1 54:1 55:1 56:1 57:1 58:1 59:1 60:1 61:1 62:1 63:1 64:1 65:1 66:1 67:1 68:1 69:1 70:1 71:1 72:1 73:1 74:1 75:1 76:1 77:1 78:1 79:1 80:1 81:1 82:1 83:1 84:1 85:1 86:1 87:1 88:1 89:1 90:1 91:1 92:1 93:1 94:1 95:1 96:1 97:1 98:1 99:1 100:1 101:1 102:1 103:1 104:1 105:1 nature 84:8 nearing 13:23 nearly 31:12 36:22 necessarily 47:15 58:20 80:4 neck 10:2 need 7:8,11 10:6 29:8 47:25 54:18,19 neither 103:6 104:9 neutralise 12:11 never 13:15 24:18 36:17 79:5 100:7 new 4:20 20:15,21 25:4,6 32:6 33:21,25 34:2 72:24 nice 103:10 night 31:14 nod 5:21 nominal 49:24 50:6,9,21 51:10 56:11 normal 5:6 normally 84:5 86:21 north 29:2 notary 4:12 notes 104:6 notice 47:18 noticed 5:7 nottingham 10:23 nowadays 101:15 number 3:12 28:18 29:3 32:17 58:4,6,24 76:6 80:21 81:2 88:13 89:23 93:9,15 numbers 20:25 47:2,18 58:20,22 86:11 87:16 97:11,20 numerous 25:3 numismatic 16:12 20:14,19,20 23:13 28:17 33:22 35:22 42:11 69:15 85:8,15 numismatics 20:10,17 25:23 85:17 numismatists 85:15 nw 2:16 nyinc 33:20 34:6 36:5 O oath 6:14 object 18:6,7 27:4 39:6 45:8 48:21 52:9,20 70:22 70:23 71:19 75:5 78:9 94:17 96:18 100:6 objection 7:16,21,25 8:2,5,6 18:10 26:5 53:21 57:20 62:20 72:2 91:5,10 100:10 objects 51:18 86:16 obviously 48:3 81:17 102:14 occasions 25:4 odd 25:8 offer 37:9,15 38:19 offered 38:16 office 2:6 79:22 offices 90:21 oh 62:2 69:7 okay 4:20 5:9,10 7:11 9:2,5 9:7,14 10:6,8 14:11 16:14 18:13 23:25 26:9,12,21 28:2 32:18 35:17 39:13 41:5 44:25 46:18 51:16 52:4 54:17,22 63:6 65:4 66:12 71:7,25 79:3,15,18 80:6,9,13 89:5,13,18 92:6,7 94:23 103:3 old 13:16 41:6 50:19 58:2 59:3,7,10,25 60:6,12 60:19 61:2 86:8 once 13:10 35:10 46:23 102:24 oneman 36:24 ones 21:2 83:5 ongoing 27:19 28:3 open 79:22 opened 82:13 opportunity 35:3 89:10 oral 1:11 order 25:24 34:18 57:15 organisation 23:6,10 28:8 oriental 13:9 original 105:5 outcome 104:15 outlay 72:11 outside 19:15 76:18 overall 15:24 overview 79:11 P p 2:3,3 package 30:21,25 32:6 34:10,12 41:4 46:13 47:14 51:22 57:14 63:4 72:22 76:11 81:17 82:10 packages Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 39 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 118 81:2 page 3:5,12 32:25 33:12 37:8 38:22 41:19 44:3,4 45:2 55:24 56:13 59:15,18 69:24 70:2,17 73:11 74:18 75:18 87:17 88:4,4,10 88:11,14 89:8,9,10,11 89:15 105:6 pages 74:3 paid 68:19 69:14 84:7 98:24 99:3 paintings 13:9 paperwork 95:21 paragraph 88:9,20 parcel 83:17 parents 86:10 parliament 35:24 part 8:4 16:14 92:21 102:19 participate 35:5 particular 27:10,11 60:17,25 89:9 93:23 particularly 59:5 parties 4:10 104:11,14 paul 15:23 28:25 33:15 34:4 34:13,14,20 36:4 37:14 40:16 41:21 45:3 46:7 47:23 48:7 49:9,12 51:24 56:11 56:19 71:3,11 72:21 74:19,22 75:18 77:10 77:17 78:4,24 82:19 83:4,9,21 84:7,25 99:7 100:24 pauls 69:12,17 pause 89:10,13 92:5 pay 17:6 22:7 40:10 67:2 69:12 70:14 75:14 91:4,9 paying 81:20 payment 69:17 95:7 peak 15:8,11 people 14:9 15:6 19:13 23:14 78:3 81:16 86:7,10,12 90:24 91:3,15 92:17 102:12 peoples 15:4 percentage 101:20 102:5 perfectly 26:23 37:4 period 78:22 permit 93:5 person 6:6 44:8 63:18 74:8 100:9 persuade 50:4 53:14 peter 2:19 7:14 25:16,20 27:9 35:3 39:5 41:22 45:4 52:12 78:11 84:15 88:11 96:20 100:11 103:11 pett 1:13 3:4 4:2,13 18:13 19:5 23:25 26:6,21 27:19 32:23 39:8,13 41:17 44:2 49:5 52:24 54:2,16 63:8,17 71:7 73:9 75:10 78:15 80:19 85:24 87:20 88:3 89:11 92:3,8 94:9 97:10 103:13 phone 5:19 6:21 photographed 14:22 photographs 20:25 38:24 51:6 phrase 7:3 phrased 7:24 physically 19:14 pick 18:25 pictured 73:24 74:11 pictures 53:9 86:2,25 87:8 92:25 piece 34:22 place 13:6 33:25 35:7,10 48:15 placed 49:24 plaintiff 1:6 2:5 plan 79:22 play 43:14 player 36:19 please 9:12 38:23 51:14 74:23 105:4 plus 14:25 point 7:10 10:6 16:9 pointed 65:8 poor 49:8 position 12:13 35:2 72:10 92:22 positions 11:17 13:13 24:8 possession 47:21 possible 52:19 possibly 96:6 post 19:16 21:8 73:15 102:23 postage 83:20 84:2 102:2,14,16 102:17,25 postmen 82:12 pounds 55:25 56:3 practice 21:12 47:4 premarked 32:16 63:9 68:23 prepaid 98:15,23 preparation 4:22 prepared 55:20 presence 4:12 present 4:24 preservation 49:8 preserved 16:18 president 25:23 28:12 pressed 31:5 presumably 22:6 24:3 45:22 46:25 47:23 74:4 99:5 presume 46:2 51:21 pretty 17:25 19:3 51:8 78:23 previous 9:4 16:20,25 95:9 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 40 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 119 previously 17:5 44:7 price 16:6,23 17:18,23 18:4 18:15,17 19:4 23:2 49:19 53:5,6,7,11 54:8 55:24 56:6,8,9 60:2 69:21 75:15 76:23 77:4 95:24 99:2,14 102:22 priced 17:16,19 52:18 82:9 prices 14:19 99:15 pricing 14:21 16:12,15,21 17:6 17:22 18:20 23:2 53:16 prime 14:23 printed 14:22 prior 12:20 35:6,8 private 37:6 probably 37:24 48:7 56:19 65:22 66:16 80:10 83:4 99:22 102:2,10 problem 5:19 24:4 procedure 17:21 46:23 49:16 procedures 17:8 19:10 21:4,5 22:8 proceed 8:6 process 10:18 17:11 18:22,23 19:7,13 22:25 67:11 76:22 produce 14:18 produced 20:15 92:13 produces 20:17 producing 86:13 production 85:9 professional 25:22 28:15,22 85:14 profit 54:7 68:7,9,15 progress 31:7 promoted 13:25 prompted 12:24 pronounce 64:24 proposed 26:25 provide 34:18 57:15 93:19 provided 46:8 52:6 provides 70:19 publication 16:13 publications 20:11 64:7 published 20:19 puetz 41:23,25 44:9 purchase 39:24 purchased 39:21 purchaser 71:18 81:10 pure 83:20 purpose 49:18 68:16 76:11 92:16 purposes 49:19 56:12 60:12 68:12 95:16 push 100:17 put 13:18 19:14 23:14 32:5 34:9,12 35:7,10,25 46:13 50:24 51:21 53:2,11 56:10 57:14 68:12 74:23 75:13,25 76:11,13,23 85:8 99:23 putative 53:11 putting 30:21,24 56:12 72:22 76:5 83:21 Q quantity 58:17 query 47:3 question 6:23 7:3,4,20,20,23 8:7 8:21 9:3,10 18:14,14 18:19 21:23 26:13,18 44:7 45:14 50:16 75:21 82:6 93:18 questions 5:12 7:10 9:17,22 10:15 12:6 26:5 80:11,20 84:22 93:8 94:4 96:13,21 quite 13:3 35:19 72:6 89:16 96:6 99:8 quoted 60:7 R r 2:3 radiotherapy 10:2 raises 7:21 ranking 17:4 read 20:10,13,24 40:22 48:8 52:14 61:13 71:2 88:16 89:9,13 92:6,6 reading 40:19 45:11 46:5 realise 9:3,5 realised 99:21 really 13:2 16:7 21:6 27:8 29:9 31:4,5 36:6 38:6 38:9 40:18 42:16 48:17 50:18 51:13 52:2 66:25 67:17 68:3,18 78:17,19 100:12 reason 6:22 7:9 10:10 19:5 66:23 67:20 90:9 reasonable 40:14 90:8,19 reasonably 17:19 reassured 91:16 rebuilt 31:15 recall 12:3 27:8,11 37:23 50:8 57:18 63:2 81:7 81:15,22 82:2 receive 24:20 46:24 received 46:19,23 47:14 95:7,12 96:3 receiving 47:5 73:17 receptionist 15:10 recipient 40:8,9 recognise 33:4 48:2 55:11 69:8 recollection 75:22 record 4:7 5:12,22 6:6 8:20 9:6 18:10 27:13,22 55:2,3,4 80:14,15,16 96:18 104:8 recording 6:3 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 41 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 120 records 16:25 recovering 9:25 red 79:23 reexamination 3:8 94:6 refer 45:19 46:14 59:21 98:17 reference 16:24 references 14:21 referring 41:8 43:17 46:15 70:16 refers 45:16 reflect 53:19 reflected 53:2,5 regard 23:16 68:20 regarded 36:18,25 regarding 17:9 23:19 24:8 26:6 63:3 regards 38:7 registered 83:17 regularly 55:20 regulations 24:8 25:10 26:2 32:6 35:5,7 68:13,17 76:20 related 40:25 104:10 relates 56:15 relating 55:14 relation 41:4 relationship 30:14 relationships 85:19 relative 35:15 104:13 relevant 18:9 27:15 remember 8:16,17 26:24,25 35:11 59:13 77:24 83:2 remembering 94:12 remind 74:23 rephrase 18:19 31:22 45:14 71:25 94:23 replied 38:19 replies 75:18 reporter 2:22 4:11 5:14,20 6:6 32:10,15 41:12 43:21 63:12 68:25 73:4 87:15,18,22 91:22 97:5 104:2,5 reporters 1:1 2:1 3:1 4:1 5:1 6:1 7:1 8:1 9:1 10:1 11:1 12:1 13:1 14:1 15:1 16:1 17:1 18:1 19:1 20:1 21:1 22:1 23:1 24:1 25:1 26:1 27:1 28:1 29:1 30:1 31:1 32:1 33:1 34:1 35:1 36:1 37:1 38:1 39:1 40:1 41:1 42:1 43:1 44:1 45:1 46:1 47:1 48:1 49:1 50:1 51:1 52:1 53:1 54:1 55:1 56:1 57:1 58:1 59:1 60:1 61:1 62:1 63:1 64:1 65:1 66:1 67:1 68:1 69:1 70:1 71:1 72:1 73:1 74:1 75:1 76:1 77:1 78:1 79:1 80:1 81:1 82:1 83:1 84:1 85:1 86:1 87:1 88:1 89:1 90:1 91:1 92:1 93:1 94:1 95:1 96:1 97:1 98:1 99:1 100:1 101:1 102:1 103:1 104:1 105:1 reporting 82:9 represent 23:15 25:24 representations 35:8,18 representative 28:20 representing 15:3 35:22 represents 23:18 requested 33:9 requests 73:22 require 93:5 requires 92:18 research 20:16 resources 78:18 respect 95:9 response 8:19 37:22 responses 5:21 responsibilities 14:3,12,16 16:9 restriction 27:10 restrictions 21:9 34:23 37:11 86:15 retail 17:7 19:4 76:14 101:24 retailing 85:10 retirement 13:23 review 20:14 57:4 88:10 89:11 right 12:5 22:7 23:3 32:24 33:13 58:15 62:5,19 66:5,10 70:9,14 76:6 80:2 97:18 98:11,13 100:16,19 road 31:11 robert 63:18 64:12 role 14:23 43:14 56:25 roman 29:25 51:13 room 19:16 73:15,20,21 79:21 rooms 77:8 79:21 ropey 51:5 round 33:25 38:17 route 82:14 routine 11:5 12:9 19:2 row 1:19 royal 20:10,20 85:19,21,22 rules 5:8 rummage 86:22 run 29:4 running 14:9 S s 2:3,8 sake 82:11 sale 17:7 22:23 23:2 37:5 44:15 saliva 10:3 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 42 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 121 satisfaction 36:3 saw 85:24 100:7 saying 6:3 52:17 71:22 100:2 sayles 23:11 24:24 25:9,15 33:15 34:5 36:5,8,16 37:3,9 38:15,23 39:9 39:9 41:22 43:4 45:3 45:15 48:13,24 51:16 63:21 70:17,25 74:20 75:3 says 32:24 38:23 42:2 44:13 45:15 47:14 48:13 49:6 51:17 52:4,13 57:24 64:16 65:22 66:15,16 67:5 70:2,17 71:9,20 74:22 95:4 98:6,8,12,14 schedule 56:14 scholarly 20:10 school 10:22 86:22 scope 96:18 script 61:13 second 18:7 33:12 44:4 54:20 55:18 61:20 70:23 secondclass 11:3 secretary 15:10 see 5:23 13:4 24:4 30:19 32:3,25 33:18 37:12 45:4,17 48:18 58:2 59:15,16 61:18,21 62:2,9 63:21 64:2,18 65:11,23 70:3 73:25 74:7,12,20,24 75:18 79:8 84:3 86:24 87:17 89:6 97:24 99:15 seeing 91:18 seen 17:17 20:2 24:13 31:19 64:6 69:9 74:9 77:8 87:5 92:8 95:9 seized 37:21 72:19 76:12 seizure 31:18 seizures 23:16,19 sell 14:24 25:8 53:13 54:4 71:16 77:6,8 90:13 94:11 selling 14:14 15:2 16:2 42:24 53:11 56:5,7,9 60:2 76:23,24 77:4 99:14 102:22 sells 86:4 send 21:12 30:21 37:20 38:24 40:7,22 71:11 sending 19:13 59:7 64:18 73:16 sendings 60:15 sends 74:15 sense 6:12 61:11 85:2 sent 35:13 39:8 41:3 45:15 45:16,24 48:5 50:25 51:15 56:20 64:21 93:3 101:3 sentence 35:19 separate 79:4,21 84:6 102:9 separately 101:6,22,24 102:8 september 15:19 serious 31:11 36:18 served 17:24 service 93:14 services 25:21 set 23:11 85:4 seven 1:8 65:15,18 66:4,11 shake 5:21 shaky 31:4,4 shaped 65:9 sheet 55:17 105:5 shipment 47:5,7 55:15 56:16 60:20,23 93:19 shipments 47:10 shipped 81:3,6 94:25 shipping 48:15 53:3 97:15 99:12 99:19,25 100:3,7 101:5,22 102:7 shola 2:23 104:4,22 shoo 64:25 short 42:6,8,9,10 shortly 14:7 show 25:6 32:4 showing 63:17 shown 87:23 91:23 96:14 shows 15:2 25:4,5 102:13 sick 9:24 side 53:12 63:2 signature 105:25 silver 42:12 similar 16:20 58:18 77:7,8 similarly 42:22 sit 47:16 site 44:14 situation 24:6 95:15 skill 104:8 skull 31:15 smaller 90:25 society 20:10,20 23:13 soil 21:10 sold 17:5 77:7 90:10 somebody 5:6 6:3 8:5 39:17 40:9 45:22 47:14 51:14 son 1:19 soon 11:11 sorry 31:22 35:14,16 44:6 50:8 96:20 sort 23:12 37:24 86:5,21 sound 12:6 19:11 sounds 65:3 source 64:22 sources 76:6 southampton 1:19 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 43 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 122 spade 65:8 speak 5:14 19:6 27:6 66:7 78:18 speaking 6:7,8 14:13 15:9 16:18 21:2,14 22:10 23:4 34:8 35:25 47:8,9 49:22 81:19 82:4,12 83:3 86:16 90:23 101:7,14,23 speaks 45:9 70:25 75:7 special 87:12,13 specialised 77:12 specialist 11:22 79:6 87:4 specifically 8:8 81:25 speculate 48:23 52:11 58:11 76:15 83:16 speculated 100:3 speculating 52:13 100:18 speculation 23:21 39:7 52:21 53:22 70:24 71:4 75:6 100:7 speed 92:7 spending 84:21 spent 31:14 83:20 spink 1:19 10:25 11:11,15,18 12:13,17,20 13:4 14:10,12 17:8 19:9 21:16 28:7 29:7,13 30:5 31:21,23 35:4,18 38:15,16 40:10 45:25 46:3,19,23 48:4 49:20 52:6 58:12 61:8 64:21 68:4,5,8,14 71:16 72:3,4,13,16 73:19 74:12,15 75:25 79:16 80:22 81:10 83:23 84:11 85:2,3,4 86:3 90:20 91:3,9 92:22 93:13 94:10,15 94:24 95:13,15 100:20 101:11 spinks 19:10,21 21:4,12 22:8 29:5 47:21 49:16 52:18 53:6,18 54:8,11 70:9 83:14 spoken 4:21 36:10 spotty 6:22 spring 31:25 st 2:8 stage 15:20 47:12 stamped 43:19 63:10 96:16 stand 70:5 standard 17:12 42:11 46:22 47:4 59:16,19 60:14 standing 50:9 start 6:8 10:16 26:18 started 10:19 11:10,13 12:13 29:13 starting 13:13 55:8 state 7:25 8:5 49:8 stated 89:15 states 1:2,5 2:6 27:2 37:20 59:8 72:18 93:4 stay 90:16 stayed 15:15 stenotype 104:6 stipulated 4:10 stock 36:22,24 37:3 stocks 20:12 stopped 58:23 85:10 stopping 7:10 strategy 26:16 street 2:16 stricken 11:21 strike 62:15 95:14 strikes 67:18 struck 62:25 103:2 structured 72:8 students 86:23 studied 10:23 study 11:7 stuff 86:8 subject 33:17 38:12 succinct 89:17 suggest 69:11 suitable 45:21 suitcases 86:8 suite 2:17 sum 22:7 99:24 summarise 60:11 supply 37:9 38:19 45:23 supplying 85:22 suppose 30:10 46:24 61:12 supposed 58:24 sure 5:6,23 9:18 22:9,19 24:3 28:4 29:9 46:18 47:24 54:25 78:23 81:18 100:12 surprised 95:7 suspect 75:12 76:12 77:16 82:12 swallow 102:2 swiss 20:14 sworn 4:3 syrup 9:21 T take 4:11 7:11 10:8 12:2 32:7 39:9 48:20,24 49:4 51:19 54:14 63:6 66:6,8 67:15 68:22 70:21 71:2,8 73:10 80:7 87:20 88:3 92:3 taken 1:18 6:14 20:7 31:16 33:25 104:12 talk 5:3 6:5 21:3 28:25 34:4 36:8 37:14 38:4 40:16 42:14 46:7 49:9,12 51:13,24 56:22 57:7 67:2 talked 84:24 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 44 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 123 talking 6:6,8 35:13 38:11 43:4 43:7 78:25 89:19 tally 47:2 tax 59:13,14,23 60:6,13,16 telephone 2:12,20 tell 6:24 8:19 10:20 28:24 34:14,20 36:4 43:9 84:25 92:4,11,15 telling 93:11 template 59:22 tend 16:2 tends 50:22 tens 19:22 tenure 12:17 101:11 term 40:11,12 terminology 42:11 terms 27:7 28:19 49:22 53:13 56:10 58:21 66:25 83:19 92:18 terrible 31:20 terribly 48:2 51:20 test 32:6 34:18 37:10 57:15 57:18 76:19 testify 4:4 23:21 testimony 9:6 10:13 18:8 78:10 94:19,20 thank 41:5 44:2 63:17 69:6 70:8 73:9 84:20,20 88:15 103:6,13 thanks 103:12 theatre 31:15 theoretical 56:5,7 theoretically 21:10 thereabouts 29:11 30:11 thereof 104:7 thing 6:2 20:18 50:2 58:21 things 12:22 20:4 21:9,25 30:20 34:19 41:3 54:5 61:12 102:13 think 5:18 8:23 9:9,23 12:3 15:14 18:8 21:7 23:11 25:11 26:7 28:5,5 29:14 31:2 37:18 38:17 39:6 40:13,23 45:9,20 46:11 48:7,22 49:23 52:10 57:19,21 58:10 59:25 60:8 62:20 71:3 75:6 80:7 83:4 84:14 88:25 94:18,19 98:21 99:13 100:6 103:3,4 thinking 101:19 102:4 thought 13:3,6 28:10 29:10 51:22 67:9 102:10 thousands 18:24 19:23 81:4 thread 32:2 33:7 46:6 threads 40:20,21 three 1:7 10:22 15:9,14 16:7 62:5,8 65:9 80:23 99:6 101:10 throw 86:21 time 6:7,23 7:19,19 27:11 31:16 34:2 35:12 42:23,23 43:13 61:9 69:13,24 72:14 75:20 77:12 78:22 80:22 81:3 83:20 84:21 85:13 100:4 103:7,13 times 13:25 24:11 42:6 62:21 81:14 85:8 title 13:14 29:12 titles 13:16 today 4:16,25 5:19 9:22,24 82:16 84:21 85:25 89:19 100:8 103:7 todays 6:15,19 10:12 told 30:20 tompa 2:19 3:7 6:4 7:14,20,24 18:6 19:7 23:20 25:16,19 26:4,10,17 26:22 27:12,22 35:3 39:5 41:22 45:4,8 48:21 52:9,20 53:21 54:23 57:20 62:19 70:22 71:19 75:5 78:9,12 80:9 84:17,19 87:19 88:2,13,18 90:2 91:7,13 92:2 94:3,17 96:17,23 97:3 100:5 103:6 tongue 12:10 top 41:18 54:21 60:2 74:18 99:6 toss 42:23 total 56:2,4 70:3 97:23 98:12,15,23 99:7,8,14 touch 23:14 trade 28:17 35:22 64:7 85:15 traded 67:10 training 29:21 transaction 68:15 72:2,4 95:13 transcribed 104:8 transcript 5:13 104:7 trauma 31:13 travel 14:25 travelling 86:12 treasure 35:23 treatment 10:11 tried 31:17 trousered 71:14 true 50:2 81:13 104:7 truthful 6:15,18 10:12 try 6:4 68:15 86:23 trying 34:23,24 35:9 68:12 72:9 81:20 97:13 turn 21:23 89:8 turning 56:13 tursi 15:25 77:23 78:5,23 79:9 twelve 1:8 two 11:23 15:21 16:5 17:2 25:24 29:17,18 30:11 43:12 54:4,24 61:20 77:18 78:4 84:22 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 45 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 124 type 55:19 72:2,3 74:16 95:14 types 86:3 typical 35:4 68:14 71:16 72:3 72:4,5 86:3 87:6 typically 74:15 83:23 90:12 91:3 96:2 U uhhuh 65:7 70:20 uk 35:24 unattributed 57:25 59:2 60:18 61:2 61:16 65:15,19 uncontroversial 36:7 understand 5:16,24 6:16,24 7:2 8:9 46:15 51:2 80:2 understanding 6:23 23:17 38:14 51:4 72:7 understood 7:5 unique 17:2 united 1:2,5,21 2:6 72:18 85:12 93:4 university 10:23 unusual 5:5 72:6 76:8 upper 11:3 uptodate 60:9 usa 32:8 41:10 43:19 54:15 63:9 68:23 72:25 87:16 96:15 97:3,4 usd 70:3 use 70:6 76:21 usually 86:4 V v 1:6 vague 50:12 valuation 67:14,16,19 value 18:4,16,21 22:3 37:20 42:21,22 48:15,16 49:7,10,20,20,24 50:3 50:7,15,21,21,24 51:3 51:10,17,18,25 52:19 53:8,17,19 54:12 55:25 56:11,12 59:23 60:13 61:17,21,25 62:6,9,13,16,25 65:21 66:4,24 67:5,21,23 68:2 69:21 70:7,8,12 75:13 76:9,21,22 90:7 96:4,5,8,10 97:21,22 98:11 99:9,16 102:7 102:18 values 50:11 73:24 74:24 75:3 98:17 valuing 49:17,18 vat 59:16,16,19,19 60:2,10 vcoins 44:13,14,17 verbal 5:20,24 vice 25:23 28:12,16 view 27:15 49:7 99:8 volunteered 25:21 26:22 W wait 18:7 70:23 walk 13:12 want 9:17 18:10 21:24 32:10 54:20 60:7 74:23 75:13 76:13 78:20 96:12,21 97:10 wanted 13:23 19:6 27:4 52:25 75:12 76:19 wants 51:21 war 86:14 warrant 85:21 warrants 85:20 washington 2:18 water 10:4,7 54:21 way 7:23 15:15 17:22 31:18 38:17 44:18 72:8,12 86:6 90:16 100:23 waybill 96:25 97:17 wayne 23:11 24:24 33:15 34:5 34:9,13,15 36:5,8,10 36:15,23 37:3 38:15 38:18 41:22 43:4 45:3,6 63:21 70:25 74:19,22 75:16 76:15 wayside 11:21 wc1b 1:20 wednesday 1:15 week 11:23 15:21 16:5 29:17 29:19 43:12 78:4 weight 97:22 went 13:8 15:14 28:5 35:23 west 85:5 western 62:8 65:10 whatsoever 12:21,21 whereabouts 97:25 wholesale 19:3 76:14 99:9 willing 84:11 91:3,9 93:19 winchcombe 73:12,14,18,23 77:16 77:21 80:3 winchcombes 77:10 wish 70:17 witness 3:3 41:13 43:22 63:13 69:2 73:5 87:23 91:23 97:6 103:10 word 7:25 66:6 words 7:2 22:21 work 13:3 14:20 16:4 31:7 31:18 41:6 47:17 69:17 73:18,20 97:13 worked 15:6 30:5 79:18 working 10:25 11:14,23 19:8,21 29:6 36:23 78:3,7,16 78:21 works 5:4 69:15 world 19:14 85:17 worth 42:24 49:17 50:4 53:14 65:22 66:16,17,21 95:5,24 wow 11:14 wretched 20:4 write Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 46 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 125 5:20 16:3,6 22:15,23 39:16 82:5,10 writes 102:22 writing 5:15 14:20 16:2,11 22:11 56:25 101:9 written 17:8 20:23 58:12 80:21 101:5,20 102:5,6,16 wrong 100:8 wrote 82:17 83:4 99:23 X x 3:2 42:2 Y year 20:15,18,21 24:11 25:6 25:24 27:7 34:2 85:8 years 13:19 17:25 19:22 23:12 24:11,12,14 25:7 27:9 28:19 29:4 29:10 30:4 34:2 36:11,14 58:2 59:3,7 59:10,25 60:6,12,19 61:2 80:24 85:9,10,23 101:15,18 york 25:4,6 33:21,25 Z zhou 62:3 64:24 65:5,5,8 0 00 98:6 00064 32:25 00258 87:16 05pm 80:15 08pm 1:17 4:7 1 1 3:14 10:24 11:2 32:13 32:19,20 36:22 50:10 50:14,22 51:11 10 3:23 61:25 62:3 80:10 97:7 100 17:25 58:2 59:3,6,10 59:25 60:6,8,12,19 61:2 85:9 1015 2:16 103 41:10 10pm 80:16 12 24:12 36:11,14 85:8 14 88:4,14 89:9 15 27:9 1666 85:4 18 96:16,24 97:23 98:9,11 185 55:25 1880 85:7 18th 2:16 1975 11:13 15:13 1983 13:21 1997 35:13 19th 85:6 2 2 1:17 3:15 4:7 10:24 11:2 41:11,14 44:8 50:10 91:21 96:15 97:4 20 24:11 59:24 60:2 102:21 2000 22:23,24 20036 2:18 20045 29:11 2007 35:14 2009 15:19,20,24 16:9,10 28:9 31:25 35:14 63:23 78:4 2015 1:15 2025 102:11,15 204 2:17 21 61:17 21201 2:10 22 20:2 93:10 23 70:3 73:3,11,25 74:18 93:11 24 73:11 25 61:21 65:23 66:17 67:3 67:15 74:3 83:19 95:5,24 96:4 25pm 55:3 271 88:4,13 275 69:16 70:3 71:10 95:10 279 47:15 28 55:4 73:3 74:3 280 87:18,19 3 3 3:16 43:20,23 45:2 55:3,4 65:10 72:25 91:21 30 34:2 54:20 101:18 300 65:6 3040 85:23 31 68:24 70:17 31st 63:23 32 3:14 36 2:8 4 4 3:17 43:19 55:7,9 69:24 80:15,16 82:16 89:24 90:3 94:25 99:11 103:15 40 19:21 30:10 34:3 80:24 400 65:9 41 3:15 43 3:16 43pm 103:15 44 43:19 46 44:3 45:2 97:23 98:9 98:11,15,24 47 43:19 4et 1:20 4th 2:9 5 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 47 of 48 USA v. THREE KNIFE-SHAPED COINS 9 NOVEMBER 2015 DEPOSITION OF MR JOHN PETT National Court Reporters, Inc. 888.800.9656 126 5 3:18 42:2,6 50:10,14 54:15 62:6 63:11,14 64:5 88:4,14 50 60:9 53 66:5,13,13,21 55 3:17 58 97:21 98:6 99:7 6 6 3:19 32:8,14 68:24 69:3 70:16 89:9 62 54:16 55:8,24 59:15,18 82:17 90:4 63 3:18 54:16 55:8 56:13 67:22 69:24 82:17 90:4 64 32:9 65 33:12 37:8 38:22 66 32:9,25 69 1:19 3:19 7 7 3:6,20 57:25 58:4 63:9 73:2,6 73 3:20 74 62:13 66:10 76 98:15,24 8 8 3:21 41:10 87:22,24 800 1:1 2:1 3:1 4:1 5:1 6:1 7:1 8:1 9:1 10:1 11:1 12:1 13:1 14:1 15:1 16:1 17:1 18:1 19:1 20:1 21:1 22:1 23:1 24:1 25:1 26:1 27:1 28:1 29:1 30:1 31:1 32:1 33:1 34:1 35:1 36:1 37:1 38:1 39:1 40:1 41:1 42:1 43:1 44:1 45:1 46:1 47:1 48:1 49:1 50:1 51:1 52:1 53:1 54:1 55:1 56:1 57:1 58:1 59:1 60:1 61:1 62:1 63:1 64:1 65:1 66:1 67:1 68:1 69:1 70:1 71:1 72:1 73:1 74:1 75:1 76:1 77:1 78:1 79:1 80:1 81:1 82:1 83:1 84:1 85:1 86:1 87:1 88:1 89:1 90:1 91:1 92:1 93:1 94:1 95:1 96:1 97:1 98:1 99:1 100:1 101:1 102:1 103:1 104:1 105:1 82 13:22 83 13:22 84 3:7 87 3:21 888 1:1 2:1 3:1 4:1 5:1 6:1 7:1 8:1 9:1 10:1 11:1 12:1 13:1 14:1 15:1 16:1 17:1 18:1 19:1 20:1 21:1 22:1 23:1 24:1 25:1 26:1 27:1 28:1 29:1 30:1 31:1 32:1 33:1 34:1 35:1 36:1 37:1 38:1 39:1 40:1 41:1 42:1 43:1 44:1 45:1 46:1 47:1 48:1 49:1 50:1 51:1 52:1 53:1 54:1 55:1 56:1 57:1 58:1 59:1 60:1 61:1 62:1 63:1 64:1 65:1 66:1 67:1 68:1 69:1 70:1 71:1 72:1 73:1 74:1 75:1 76:1 77:1 78:1 79:1 80:1 81:1 82:1 83:1 84:1 85:1 86:1 87:1 88:1 89:1 90:1 91:1 92:1 93:1 94:1 95:1 96:1 97:1 98:1 99:1 100:1 101:1 102:1 103:1 104:1 105:1 9 9 3:22 62:9 68:23 91:23 91:24 91 3:22 94 3:8 63:10 95 63:10 9656 1:1 2:1 3:1 4:1 5:1 6:1 7:1 8:1 9:1 10:1 11:1 12:1 13:1 14:1 15:1 16:1 17:1 18:1 19:1 20:1 21:1 22:1 23:1 24:1 25:1 26:1 27:1 28:1 29:1 30:1 31:1 32:1 33:1 34:1 35:1 36:1 37:1 38:1 39:1 40:1 41:1 42:1 43:1 44:1 45:1 46:1 47:1 48:1 49:1 50:1 51:1 52:1 53:1 54:1 55:1 56:1 57:1 58:1 59:1 60:1 61:1 62:1 63:1 64:1 65:1 66:1 67:1 68:1 69:1 70:1 71:1 72:1 73:1 74:1 75:1 76:1 77:1 78:1 79:1 80:1 81:1 82:1 83:1 84:1 85:1 86:1 87:1 88:1 89:1 90:1 91:1 92:1 93:1 94:1 95:1 96:1 97:1 98:1 99:1 100:1 101:1 102:1 103:1 104:1 105:1 97 3:23 99 41:10,19 9th 1:15 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-5 Filed 08/22/16 Page 48 of 48 ACCG_00064 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-6 Filed 08/22/16 Page 1 of 3 ACCG_00065 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-6 Filed 08/22/16 Page 2 of 3 ACCG_00066 Case 1:13-cv-01183-CCB Document 76-6 Filed 08/22/16 Page 3 of 3
